5 ms·

Artemis is building a 4G network in SF to prove its pCell tech works

67 points by ghosh 12y ago

DiabloD3 12y ago
Screw that. Build one in my town to prove 4G exists.
examancer 12y ago
The article asserts Artemis will need to become a MVNO. This would be a large hurdle and one I don't think is remotely necessary. Unlimited data will make Artemis very attractive for fixed home internet service. Also, some small cellular networks don't offer roaming and only work in very limited geographic areas. Many have successfully found niches among people who don't travel much or have alternatives when they are traveling.
- fragmede 12y ago
  I totally agree - they even mention Webpass in the linked article, though only in passing. Webpass is an established niche ISP in San Francisco (they sell 100Mbit symmetric home internet service for $55/mo, but serve a very limited area). A cell-phone service that only covered San Francisco isn't worth very much to me, but I'm sure many residents would jump at the chance to ditch Comcast for their home internet service, and Webpass is probably just the partnership Artemis needs - assuming the technology pans out.
sparaker 12y ago
I think this is possible.
nimrody 12y ago
The real problem with this type of technology is that you'll see great performance with a small number of subscribers. So unless they will be able to get enough subscribers the results will still be questionable.
- ozi 12y ago
  But the goal of this experiment isn't to be profitable, just prove the technology works so they can sell it. I'm sure they'll be able to entice enough people in tech-savvy SF to buy and use one of their SIM cards for the sake of making their case.
noteloop 12y ago
The 5G capabilities of the technology look amazing on paper. Hope it works out in the real world. Those interested in more technical details should check out the whitepaper: http://www.rearden.com/artemis/An-Introduction-to-pCell-White-Paper-150224.pdf http://www.rearden.com/artemis/An-Introduction-to-pCell-Whit... Page 81 talks about pCell VR, their ideas about cloud based wireless VR tech.
- MrBuddyCasino 12y ago
  Last time I asked there were some doubts regarding this technology (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7732821 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7732821). Is the general consensus still that this is snake oil?
  - kbaker 12y ago
    What they have demoed and are building out now is a pretty incredible advance in modern radio systems. So there is healthy room for skepticism. It seems like there would be some major engineering challenges ahead, with predicting localization and movement of each receiver to adjust the location of the 'cell', and dealing with multipath. So this might explain why they are going slowly with building it out. But I think that it is not snake oil, just a disruptive innovation that is slowly trying to get a foothold after coming out of relative secrecy in development for years. If they get it right, though, then it will absolutely reinvent the cellular industry.
  - GeoffreyM 12y ago
    It's still snake oil. What they're designing is called a thinned phased array, or sparse phased array, see figure 19 in the white paper. Such design suffers from a major flaw known to any radar engineer: The Thinned Array curse. It even has a wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinned-array_curse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinned-array_curse In layman terms, >99% of the power transmitted is lost to sidelobes and doesn't reach the intended users (1-a/A power is lost, if you want to get technical). Such design can carry a small number of users, operating very close to the environment noise floor. The maximum allowed number of users is approximately proportional to the number of transmitters. Each user added above this limit decrease the SNR for all users in the system, killing the communication for everyone. Not a sound design for a cellular system. Phased-array design is complex and not always intuitive. Whoever invested in this company hasn't done proper due diligence.
alimoeeny 12y ago
I am not expert in this area, but I watched their presentation in NYC (or was it Columbia U) about a year ago. The way he avoided answering any technical questions made me think these guys are either full of shit, or they have such a great technology that don't need to convince anybody with their world, people will see it in action and believe them. I am now inclined to believe it is not magic. But time will tell.
chopealavu 12y ago
There are no results in the white paper showing how this technology works with moving terminals. It seems to me that if this were to be true, the requirements on real-time processing would be incredibly humongous.
infocollector 12y ago
Just started reading the whitepaper, and something does not make sense. Their experiments are done in a controlled room with multiple antennas that are being directed towards one pCell. That makes sense. But when this technology goes outdoors, where the RF propagation is extremely hard to accurately predict (especially because of the 'changing environment'), how is the pCell created (assuming you have to have accurate location and propagation information to create the correct interference patterns from multiple antennas)? Something smells here.

67 points by ghosh 12y ago

Screw that. Build one in my town to prove 4G exists.

The article asserts Artemis will need to become a MVNO. This would be a large hurdle and one I don't think is remotely necessary. Unlimited data will make Artemis very attractive for fixed home internet service. Also, some small cellular networks don't offer roaming and only work in very limited geographic areas. Many have successfully found niches among people who don't travel much or have alternatives when they are traveling.

fragmede 12y ago
I totally agree - they even mention Webpass in the linked article, though only in passing. Webpass is an established niche ISP in San Francisco (they sell 100Mbit symmetric home internet service for $55/mo, but serve a very limited area). A cell-phone service that only covered San Francisco isn't worth very much to me, but I'm sure many residents would jump at the chance to ditch Comcast for their home internet service, and Webpass is probably just the partnership Artemis needs - assuming the technology pans out.

sparaker 12y ago

I think this is possible.

nimrody 12y ago

The real problem with this type of technology is that you'll see great performance with a small number of subscribers. So unless they will be able to get enough subscribers the results will still be questionable.

ozi 12y ago
But the goal of this experiment isn't to be profitable, just prove the technology works so they can sell it. I'm sure they'll be able to entice enough people in tech-savvy SF to buy and use one of their SIM cards for the sake of making their case.

noteloop 12y ago

The 5G capabilities of the technology look amazing on paper. Hope it works out in the real world. Those interested in more technical details should check out the whitepaper: http://www.rearden.com/artemis/An-Introduction-to-pCell-White-Paper-150224.pdf http://www.rearden.com/artemis/An-Introduction-to-pCell-Whit... Page 81 talks about pCell VR, their ideas about cloud based wireless VR tech.

MrBuddyCasino 12y ago
Last time I asked there were some doubts regarding this technology (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7732821 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7732821). Is the general consensus still that this is snake oil?
- kbaker 12y ago
  What they have demoed and are building out now is a pretty incredible advance in modern radio systems. So there is healthy room for skepticism. It seems like there would be some major engineering challenges ahead, with predicting localization and movement of each receiver to adjust the location of the 'cell', and dealing with multipath. So this might explain why they are going slowly with building it out. But I think that it is not snake oil, just a disruptive innovation that is slowly trying to get a foothold after coming out of relative secrecy in development for years. If they get it right, though, then it will absolutely reinvent the cellular industry.
- GeoffreyM 12y ago
  It's still snake oil. What they're designing is called a thinned phased array, or sparse phased array, see figure 19 in the white paper. Such design suffers from a major flaw known to any radar engineer: The Thinned Array curse. It even has a wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinned-array_curse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinned-array_curse In layman terms, >99% of the power transmitted is lost to sidelobes and doesn't reach the intended users (1-a/A power is lost, if you want to get technical). Such design can carry a small number of users, operating very close to the environment noise floor. The maximum allowed number of users is approximately proportional to the number of transmitters. Each user added above this limit decrease the SNR for all users in the system, killing the communication for everyone. Not a sound design for a cellular system. Phased-array design is complex and not always intuitive. Whoever invested in this company hasn't done proper due diligence.

alimoeeny 12y ago

I am not expert in this area, but I watched their presentation in NYC (or was it Columbia U) about a year ago. The way he avoided answering any technical questions made me think these guys are either full of shit, or they have such a great technology that don't need to convince anybody with their world, people will see it in action and believe them. I am now inclined to believe it is not magic. But time will tell.

chopealavu 12y ago

There are no results in the white paper showing how this technology works with moving terminals. It seems to me that if this were to be true, the requirements on real-time processing would be incredibly humongous.

infocollector 12y ago

Just started reading the whitepaper, and something does not make sense. Their experiments are done in a controlled room with multiple antennas that are being directed towards one pCell. That makes sense. But when this technology goes outdoors, where the RF propagation is extremely hard to accurately predict (especially because of the 'changing environment'), how is the pCell created (assuming you have to have accurate location and propagation information to create the correct interference patterns from multiple antennas)? Something smells here.