6 ms·

It's really not sexism that freestyle went out of fashion. All the guys that did freestyle were left behind, too. They were also laughed at and ridiculed. The

by stolio 12y ago

It's really not sexism that freestyle went out of fashion. All the guys that did freestyle were left behind, too. They were also laughed at and ridiculed. The only reason Rodney Mullen kept his career going is he learned to skate street and he did it really well. If one of the female freestylers had done the same I'm sure the sport would look different. It really frustrates me that the author complains skateboarding isn't/wasn't a meritocracy. Number one, when it was one and the sport became more dangerous and athletic, the girls couldn't keep up. Number two, it isn't a meritocracy anymore because there are 'girls only' competitions where girls are sheltered from having to compete with the boys but they still get prize money and gold medals. If you compare a girl and a guy skater at the same skill level the girl will have more money and opportunities coming in. I don't think she really wants skateboarding to be a meritocracy, she doesn't want the pro female skateboarders to lose their sponsorships because there are hundreds of guys who are better than them who are looking for sponsorships. Unless she wants to redefine the merit of a skateboarder as the ability to convince people to buy things. That's problematic as well. If we're being honest, doing stupid and dangerous things is largely the domain of young dudes and that's why they're a better target audience to sell skateboards to. But this is our current culture, calling things sexism sells. (edit: it's really disappointing to see this catching downvotes.)

sp332 12y ago
This seems unlikely (given only what's in the article). She doesn't say that the decline of freestyle was sexist. The point is that the target demographic of commercial skateboard culture shrank drastically. Males—check; males under 18—check. And as it hit each check point it was reducing the population it was going to appeal to. And your comment doesn't address the specific claims of sexist behavior, like those Enjoi ads or Hubba's "The Girls".
- stolio 12y ago
  Just because "the target demographic of commercial skateboard culture shrank drastically" doesn't mean it was a conscious or subconscious decision of anybody involved in the industry. I'm sure there were plenty of skateboarding companies that tried to stick with the old style and simply went out of business. Things change, you can't always blame somebody when they do. On Enjoi: you have to take things in context and even a casual glance at their ads makes it clear they trend towards the offensive and absurd for the sake of being offensive and absurd. They also joke about pooping their pants but I don't think they're trying to advocate for it. On Hubba: a wheel company I've never heard of that doesn't have a wheel on Amazon's 100 best selling skateboarding wheels list and only has one set of bearings on Amazon's 100 best selling bearings. I'm not sure how they're the representatives of skateboarding culture. I just don't like the article, I think the people and companies were chosen specifically to support the narrative of sexism. Elissa Steamer and Leticia Bufoni matter more to skateboarding than Hubba Wheels ever will, but their names aren't even mentioned, only the fact that they're told they "skate like guys" but you don't have their names so it's hard to go find the context of what that means in skateboarding. If you watch five minutes of girls and five minutes of guys skateboarding at the XGames you'll realize the girls skate differently, they have a different posture and a totally different style but not really in a good way. They often look uncertain. But as is so common these days the compliments of "skating like a guy" are divorced from context in order to make them look sexist.
  - Anderkent 12y ago
    > Just because "the target demographic of commercial skateboard culture shrank drastically" doesn't mean it was a conscious or subconscious decision of anybody involved in the industry. I don't see how this is relevant? A problem is a problem, no matter if it's caused by a someones decision, or by systematic bias.
    - stolio 12y ago
      It's relevant because problems like this default to being the result of "the patriarchy" or sexism. OTOH you could argue that women were kept out of skateboarding because the entire thing moved below the glass floor (the opposite of the glass ceiling that keeps women out of dangerous jobs) as it became too low-class and dangerous for even poor women. In line with what mtbcoder noted, throughout the eighties and nineties being a skateboarder meant you were an outcast and a criminal. As a society we don't like attaching those terms to women. It was only after several years of the X-Games being on TV and new skateparks being built that the sport gained the sense of legitimacy it enjoys today.
  - mtbcoder 12y ago
    "I'm sure there were plenty of skateboarding companies that tried to stick with the old style and simply went out of business." All of skateboarding came to the brink of collapse in the late 80s and early 90s. No company was making any kind of money off the sport, only a few made just enough to keep some small sliver still alive. Major brands went under, skate parks went under, shops went under, contests ended, ramps went into disrepair, "vert" was declared dead and anyone who still enjoyed skating was harassed and ostracised as outcasts. It wasn't until about a decade later that modern skateboarding, as we see it today, saw some hope of resurgence and was able to rekindle itself from the ashes of its former glory. All thanks in part to the those that trudged on during the rough times just for the love of the sport.
    - ripb 12y ago
      >All thanks in part to the those that trudged on during the rough times just for the love of the sport. I.e. men. Like IT: There was no money in it, just a load of guys doing it for the love of it. 20 years later there's huge money in it, those guys who were there at the start are at the top of the pile and the women who never previously showed an interest in it are on the sidelines screaming "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE WOMYN??!?!". This whole equality war in IT is becoming incredibly tiring. Endless attacks from a transparent supremacy movement whose members were calling people in IT "nerds" 10 years ago.
- ripb 12y ago
  >The point is that the target demographic of commercial skateboard culture shrank drastically. If the previous demographic was 50/50 and each were contributing a similar amount of cash to the sport, therefore supporting its commercial viability, why would such a move take place?
  - sp332 12y ago
    Are you saying young males caused the change in culture by being more easily separated from their money? I guess that's possible. But if skaters really threw away their "meritocratic" culture in order to chase money, I wouldn't hold the community up as a model to follow.
lutorm 12y ago
Way to ignore basically the entire point the article makes...
- stolio 12y ago
  Wasn't the central point of the article that skateboarding is a sexist non-meritocracy and that it parallels the tech industry? I could have done more but I tried to address the first two claims in the amount of time I have to spend on the HN tonight. Whether or not it parallels the tech industry is largely a moot point since the first two claims can't withstand scrutiny.
no1ne 12y ago
yes indeed... this system of down-voting by HN is certainly not being used as content-control but more as a form of censor-ship and political-correctness(especially when it comes to 'women')....
- stolio 12y ago
  Funny thing is it jumped up to +3 karma really quickly before going negative. It was -4 before I went to bed and now it's at -2. It looks like the downvoters aren't trying to kill it, they just want it gray. It's not like I expected to disagree with a template feminist story (X is sexist, if only X was a meritocracy women would be there) without facing the idea that disagreeing with them can only be the product of sexism.
  - no1ne 12y ago
    only way to deal with such stupidity is to ignore it and at the right moments crush it.... intelligence cannot win against stupidity.... it is like a clump of clay dashed against an adamantine wall...
methehack 12y ago
edit: the comment your reading was downvoted. I decided to erase it in protest instead of letting you (the reader) read it. How can that be a protest? Someone who downvotes a comment simply because they disagree with it wants you to never see the comment. This is an object lesson in the repercussions. What was lost? You may never know.
TheLarch 12y ago
Exactly. It is frustrating to see girls taught that the reason women are under-represented in certain fields is always sexism. In athletics the reasons are patently obvious, but often left unsaid nevertheless. Sure it is true sometimes. There are definitely more hurdles in front of girls to become programmers, for instance. At the same time, women as a group, in general, simply are not as interested in working quietly with numbers as men are. They tend to be more adept verbally, OTOH, and usually prefer careers that are more social. By far the majority of school teachers and social workers in the US are women. Perceiving oneself as a victim is extraordinarily limiting. It is the last thing I wish for girls to be taught.
- saraid216 12y ago
  Instead, perceive yourself as incapable on average. That's not limiting at all.
  - lmm 12y ago
    Many good programmers have a certain arrogance. If you must absorb a stereotype, maybe "lots of other women suck" is less likely to discourage you from pursuing a programming career than "the world won't let women be programmers regardless of their skill"?
    - goodmornings 12y ago
      "Many good programmers have a certain arrogance" No, I don't think so. Or at least it's not needed to be a good programmer. It's just that if you also have other qualities people don't have to excuse your behavior by how good a programmer you are.
      - lmm 12y ago
        http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LazinessImpatienceHubris http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LazinessImpatienceHubris
        12y ago

by stolio 12y ago

sp332 12y ago

This seems unlikely (given only what's in the article). She doesn't say that the decline of freestyle was sexist. The point is that the target demographic of commercial skateboard culture shrank drastically. Males—check; males under 18—check. And as it hit each check point it was reducing the population it was going to appeal to. And your comment doesn't address the specific claims of sexist behavior, like those Enjoi ads or Hubba's "The Girls".

stolio 12y ago
Just because "the target demographic of commercial skateboard culture shrank drastically" doesn't mean it was a conscious or subconscious decision of anybody involved in the industry. I'm sure there were plenty of skateboarding companies that tried to stick with the old style and simply went out of business. Things change, you can't always blame somebody when they do. On Enjoi: you have to take things in context and even a casual glance at their ads makes it clear they trend towards the offensive and absurd for the sake of being offensive and absurd. They also joke about pooping their pants but I don't think they're trying to advocate for it. On Hubba: a wheel company I've never heard of that doesn't have a wheel on Amazon's 100 best selling skateboarding wheels list and only has one set of bearings on Amazon's 100 best selling bearings. I'm not sure how they're the representatives of skateboarding culture. I just don't like the article, I think the people and companies were chosen specifically to support the narrative of sexism. Elissa Steamer and Leticia Bufoni matter more to skateboarding than Hubba Wheels ever will, but their names aren't even mentioned, only the fact that they're told they "skate like guys" but you don't have their names so it's hard to go find the context of what that means in skateboarding. If you watch five minutes of girls and five minutes of guys skateboarding at the XGames you'll realize the girls skate differently, they have a different posture and a totally different style but not really in a good way. They often look uncertain. But as is so common these days the compliments of "skating like a guy" are divorced from context in order to make them look sexist.
- Anderkent 12y ago
  > Just because "the target demographic of commercial skateboard culture shrank drastically" doesn't mean it was a conscious or subconscious decision of anybody involved in the industry. I don't see how this is relevant? A problem is a problem, no matter if it's caused by a someones decision, or by systematic bias.
  - stolio 12y ago
    It's relevant because problems like this default to being the result of "the patriarchy" or sexism. OTOH you could argue that women were kept out of skateboarding because the entire thing moved below the glass floor (the opposite of the glass ceiling that keeps women out of dangerous jobs) as it became too low-class and dangerous for even poor women. In line with what mtbcoder noted, throughout the eighties and nineties being a skateboarder meant you were an outcast and a criminal. As a society we don't like attaching those terms to women. It was only after several years of the X-Games being on TV and new skateparks being built that the sport gained the sense of legitimacy it enjoys today.
- mtbcoder 12y ago
  "I'm sure there were plenty of skateboarding companies that tried to stick with the old style and simply went out of business." All of skateboarding came to the brink of collapse in the late 80s and early 90s. No company was making any kind of money off the sport, only a few made just enough to keep some small sliver still alive. Major brands went under, skate parks went under, shops went under, contests ended, ramps went into disrepair, "vert" was declared dead and anyone who still enjoyed skating was harassed and ostracised as outcasts. It wasn't until about a decade later that modern skateboarding, as we see it today, saw some hope of resurgence and was able to rekindle itself from the ashes of its former glory. All thanks in part to the those that trudged on during the rough times just for the love of the sport.
  - ripb 12y ago
    >All thanks in part to the those that trudged on during the rough times just for the love of the sport. I.e. men. Like IT: There was no money in it, just a load of guys doing it for the love of it. 20 years later there's huge money in it, those guys who were there at the start are at the top of the pile and the women who never previously showed an interest in it are on the sidelines screaming "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE WOMYN??!?!". This whole equality war in IT is becoming incredibly tiring. Endless attacks from a transparent supremacy movement whose members were calling people in IT "nerds" 10 years ago.
ripb 12y ago
>The point is that the target demographic of commercial skateboard culture shrank drastically. If the previous demographic was 50/50 and each were contributing a similar amount of cash to the sport, therefore supporting its commercial viability, why would such a move take place?
- sp332 12y ago
  Are you saying young males caused the change in culture by being more easily separated from their money? I guess that's possible. But if skaters really threw away their "meritocratic" culture in order to chase money, I wouldn't hold the community up as a model to follow.

lutorm 12y ago

Way to ignore basically the entire point the article makes...

stolio 12y ago
Wasn't the central point of the article that skateboarding is a sexist non-meritocracy and that it parallels the tech industry? I could have done more but I tried to address the first two claims in the amount of time I have to spend on the HN tonight. Whether or not it parallels the tech industry is largely a moot point since the first two claims can't withstand scrutiny.

no1ne 12y ago

yes indeed... this system of down-voting by HN is certainly not being used as content-control but more as a form of censor-ship and political-correctness(especially when it comes to 'women')....

stolio 12y ago
Funny thing is it jumped up to +3 karma really quickly before going negative. It was -4 before I went to bed and now it's at -2. It looks like the downvoters aren't trying to kill it, they just want it gray. It's not like I expected to disagree with a template feminist story (X is sexist, if only X was a meritocracy women would be there) without facing the idea that disagreeing with them can only be the product of sexism.
- no1ne 12y ago
  only way to deal with such stupidity is to ignore it and at the right moments crush it.... intelligence cannot win against stupidity.... it is like a clump of clay dashed against an adamantine wall...

methehack 12y ago

edit: the comment your reading was downvoted. I decided to erase it in protest instead of letting you (the reader) read it. How can that be a protest? Someone who downvotes a comment simply because they disagree with it wants you to never see the comment. This is an object lesson in the repercussions. What was lost? You may never know.

TheLarch 12y ago

Exactly. It is frustrating to see girls taught that the reason women are under-represented in certain fields is always sexism. In athletics the reasons are patently obvious, but often left unsaid nevertheless. Sure it is true sometimes. There are definitely more hurdles in front of girls to become programmers, for instance. At the same time, women as a group, in general, simply are not as interested in working quietly with numbers as men are. They tend to be more adept verbally, OTOH, and usually prefer careers that are more social. By far the majority of school teachers and social workers in the US are women. Perceiving oneself as a victim is extraordinarily limiting. It is the last thing I wish for girls to be taught.

saraid216 12y ago
Instead, perceive yourself as incapable on average. That's not limiting at all.
- lmm 12y ago
  Many good programmers have a certain arrogance. If you must absorb a stereotype, maybe "lots of other women suck" is less likely to discourage you from pursuing a programming career than "the world won't let women be programmers regardless of their skill"?
  - goodmornings 12y ago
    "Many good programmers have a certain arrogance" No, I don't think so. Or at least it's not needed to be a good programmer. It's just that if you also have other qualities people don't have to excuse your behavior by how good a programmer you are.
    - lmm 12y ago
      http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LazinessImpatienceHubris http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LazinessImpatienceHubris
      - 12y ago