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> It's American foreign policy that created anti-american Islamic extremism. That's a very reductionist analysis. The Muslim Brotherhood has existed since the

> It's American foreign policy that created anti-american Islamic extremism. That's a very reductionist analysis. The Muslim Brotherhood has existed since the 1920s. However, it was a secular, Marxist, anti-colonialist ideology that was most successful in the Arab world for the next few generations. Then these secular Arab states lost the Six Day War, and failed to provide either good governance or economic opportunities for their populations. The reason that Islamists have become so powerful is that the governments of many Arab countries have proven themselves to be completely bankrupt. If you're young (and the population pyramids in places like Egypt are very fat on the bottom), and you have very few economic opportunities, and your society is incredibly corrupt, then a radical change becomes very appealing, particularly if the people advocating that change are seen as pure and uncorrupt. The fact that Islamist groups oppose the US is one aspect of their appeal, but it's really only one factor. The fact that Hezbollah and Hamas are actively opposing Israel, while Egypt made peace with Israel in 79 is also a factor.

nickysielicki 12y ago
I'll be the first to admit I'm a dumb 20 year old that largely doesn't understand the world. You seem to know a great deal about the intricacies of the history in the middle east. I know nothing. I'm genuinely curious, though, do you think there is no argument for what I said? >If you're young [...], and you have very few economic opportunities, and your society is incredibly corrupt, then a radical change becomes very appealing, I recall looking at the revolts in Iran in 2009 [1] and what I saw was fundamentally different than what you see with ISIL. I saw people disenfranchised with the middle east governance and culture, but they were not angry or vindictive. They were productive and wanting to change things. I think that exists in the middle east, and I think that they're separate from Islamic extremists. Meanwhile there's the anti-American camp... Is their hatred because of our actions? * We funded Osama Bin Laden. [2] * We trained people fighting for ISIL. [3] * We killed 130k+ innocent civilians in the region in the past decade and a half. [4] I think it's plausible. Sure, they might dislike us even if we hadn't done those things... That being said, I think reasonable people in the middle east have reason to dislike America. (I think any reasonable person has reason to dislike America's actions.) [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Iranian_presidential_election_protests http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Iranian_presidential_elect... [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA%E2%80%93al-Qaeda_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA%E2%80%93al-Qaeda_controvers... [3]: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/08/west-training-syrian-rebels-jordan http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/08/west-training-s... [4]: https://www.iraqbodycount.org/ https://www.iraqbodycount.org/
- GabrielF00 12y ago
  The comparison between Syria and Iran is a bit strange. These are two completely different countries. Syria is primarily Sunni, Iran primarily Shi'a. Syrians speak Arabic, Iranians speak Persian. The two countries have different systems of government, different histories, different cultures. When young people are angry in Iran, they're angry at a theocratic, clerical government. When young people were angry in Syria, they were angry at a secular, socialist strongman. If you're disaffected in a theocracy, you don't become a supporter of theocracy. If you're disaffected in a Baathist regime, then it's natural to become an Islamist. To my knowledge there has never been much evidence that the US funded Bin Laden in the '80s. The CIA funded Afghans to fight the Soviets, and some Arab Islamists were also fighting the Soviets. My understanding is that the CIA did not fund the Arabs. (My source for this is Ghost Wars, by Steve Coll, which is excellent). The Guardian article you're citing is actually talking about something completely different than US training of ISIL. There are many factions in the Syrian civil war. ISIL is one faction that emerged out of al-Qaeda's Iraq branch with some members from the dredges of Saddam's regime. These people have been fighting the US for over a decade. There are also groups that oppose both ISIL and the Assad regime. These groups are being supported by the West. All of that being said, I agree with the fact that the invasion of Iraq produced extremism. However, the place to start when studying the Middle East is not "What did we do to these people that caused them to hate us." What happened is much, much more complex than that.
  - nickysielicki 12y ago
    Wow, thanks for typing that up. You're really knowledgeable! I generally thought of Syria, Iran, Iraq, and Jordan sharing the same political and cultural climates. It's very interesting to hear that they're so different, I had no idea. What do you think that America should do / shouldn't do to try to stabilize that region? How do you think America should be fighting terrorism? More importantly, as we're on HN, how do you think that NSA data collection plays into it all?
    - GabrielF00 12y ago
      I appreciate the complement. I've read a lot about the region and have traveled a bit, but am not an expert. If we could resolve the Israeli/Palestinian issue that would be a great help. However, I don't think anyone is optimistic on that front. If the negotiations with Iran over its nuclear program are successful (and it looks promising) then at least one very scary scenario will be on the back burner. Pretty much everything else looks very grim. I don't think that the NSA stuff will have any lasting impact on US relations with the Middle East/perceptions of America in the Middle East. It may have an impact on our ability to understand what's going on in the region, but I think that's very hard to assess from outside the government.

nickysielicki 12y ago

I'll be the first to admit I'm a dumb 20 year old that largely doesn't understand the world. You seem to know a great deal about the intricacies of the history in the middle east. I know nothing. I'm genuinely curious, though, do you think there is no argument for what I said? >If you're young [...], and you have very few economic opportunities, and your society is incredibly corrupt, then a radical change becomes very appealing, I recall looking at the revolts in Iran in 2009 [1] and what I saw was fundamentally different than what you see with ISIL. I saw people disenfranchised with the middle east governance and culture, but they were not angry or vindictive. They were productive and wanting to change things. I think that exists in the middle east, and I think that they're separate from Islamic extremists. Meanwhile there's the anti-American camp... Is their hatred because of our actions? * We funded Osama Bin Laden. [2] * We trained people fighting for ISIL. [3] * We killed 130k+ innocent civilians in the region in the past decade and a half. [4] I think it's plausible. Sure, they might dislike us even if we hadn't done those things... That being said, I think reasonable people in the middle east have reason to dislike America. (I think any reasonable person has reason to dislike America's actions.) [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Iranian_presidential_election_protests http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Iranian_presidential_elect... [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA%E2%80%93al-Qaeda_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA%E2%80%93al-Qaeda_controvers... [3]: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/08/west-training-syrian-rebels-jordan http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/08/west-training-s... [4]: https://www.iraqbodycount.org/ https://www.iraqbodycount.org/

GabrielF00 12y ago
The comparison between Syria and Iran is a bit strange. These are two completely different countries. Syria is primarily Sunni, Iran primarily Shi'a. Syrians speak Arabic, Iranians speak Persian. The two countries have different systems of government, different histories, different cultures. When young people are angry in Iran, they're angry at a theocratic, clerical government. When young people were angry in Syria, they were angry at a secular, socialist strongman. If you're disaffected in a theocracy, you don't become a supporter of theocracy. If you're disaffected in a Baathist regime, then it's natural to become an Islamist. To my knowledge there has never been much evidence that the US funded Bin Laden in the '80s. The CIA funded Afghans to fight the Soviets, and some Arab Islamists were also fighting the Soviets. My understanding is that the CIA did not fund the Arabs. (My source for this is Ghost Wars, by Steve Coll, which is excellent). The Guardian article you're citing is actually talking about something completely different than US training of ISIL. There are many factions in the Syrian civil war. ISIL is one faction that emerged out of al-Qaeda's Iraq branch with some members from the dredges of Saddam's regime. These people have been fighting the US for over a decade. There are also groups that oppose both ISIL and the Assad regime. These groups are being supported by the West. All of that being said, I agree with the fact that the invasion of Iraq produced extremism. However, the place to start when studying the Middle East is not "What did we do to these people that caused them to hate us." What happened is much, much more complex than that.
- nickysielicki 12y ago
  Wow, thanks for typing that up. You're really knowledgeable! I generally thought of Syria, Iran, Iraq, and Jordan sharing the same political and cultural climates. It's very interesting to hear that they're so different, I had no idea. What do you think that America should do / shouldn't do to try to stabilize that region? How do you think America should be fighting terrorism? More importantly, as we're on HN, how do you think that NSA data collection plays into it all?
  - GabrielF00 12y ago
    I appreciate the complement. I've read a lot about the region and have traveled a bit, but am not an expert. If we could resolve the Israeli/Palestinian issue that would be a great help. However, I don't think anyone is optimistic on that front. If the negotiations with Iran over its nuclear program are successful (and it looks promising) then at least one very scary scenario will be on the back burner. Pretty much everything else looks very grim. I don't think that the NSA stuff will have any lasting impact on US relations with the Middle East/perceptions of America in the Middle East. It may have an impact on our ability to understand what's going on in the region, but I think that's very hard to assess from outside the government.