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Not sure why you're getting downvoted, other than maybe because the original topic is US-centric. In many countries (not sure about the US), it is illegal to c

Not sure why you're getting downvoted, other than maybe because the original topic is US-centric. In many countries (not sure about the US), it is illegal to call yourself an engineer, regardless of what discipline it is. In Canada, various provincial bodies (PEO in Ontario) regulate the use of the title "engineer", including derivatives of it such as "software engineer". [0] Some of this might seem heavy-handed (see objection to the MCSE term[1]) and I used to think so, until seeing various articles like this one.[2] Having the term regulated is useful in establishing a minimum or baseline of knowledge that one has to have. To call oneself an engineer without having had the common/basic education in various topics like calculus, linear algebra or statistics is at best misleading, since an accredited engineering program would have provided exposure to such topics. Imagine having a conversation with an engineer who did not understand the difference (or was not even aware of the difference) between mean, median and mode when it came to categorizing request-response times? I'm not trying to knock on self-learning as it's a valuable skill to have, just the concept of title inflation. There are exceptions, of course. For example, someone with a Comp. Sci degree would likely possess the requisite knowledge and be equivalent to someone with a software engineering degree in the profession, and this is where perhaps the actions of PEO et al. are a bit overbearing. 0. http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/2266/la_id/1.htm http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/2266/la_id/1.htm 1. http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/26340/la_id/1.htm http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/26340/la_id/1.htm 2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8996024 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8996024

TheCoelacanth 12y ago
Probably because the two largest English speaking countries in the world place almost no restrictions on using the title "Engineer" whatsoever, so people from those countries get annoyed when people authoritatively state that you must not use the title "Engineer" unless you are properly certified, neglecting to mention that their authoritative statements apply to perhaps 10% of their audience.
- tjl 12y ago
  There's a movement in the UK to protect the title of engineer. Plus, in the US, it varies from state to state. For example, see Case Number: B-32981 on this page http://engineers.texas.gov/da/da021512.html http://engineers.texas.gov/da/da021512.html They were fined for using the term "foundation engineer". From a quick search it looks like California is one state where you're not allowed to use it if you're not licensed. I'm guessing a number of people are actually in violation of this, but are unlikely to be fined unless it's reported.
  - walshemj 12y ago
    That might be nice but to be blunt what has the Engineering council done for the last say 100 years. I cant see any Uk government actually having the will to pass any laws enforcing this the number of STEM graduates in parliament and the house of lords is shockingly low They also need to rescue Apprentices form its use by unskilled employers no Tesco you cannot have a Apprentices in shelf stacking to dodge paying the minimum wage.
- stygiansonic 12y ago
  Perhaps that is the reason, but it doesn't necessarily make it right nor justify it. Would it be better for the industry (and society in general) if the titles of "doctor", "lawyer" or "accountant" weren't as regulated/protected? Should we care if people are annoyed that they can't self-label themselves as one of these titles?
grecy 12y ago
> To call oneself an engineer without having had the common/basic education in various topics like calculus, linear algebra or statistics is at best misleading, since an accredited engineering program would have provided exposure to such topics. That was my point entirely. I did study all of those things, my degree was under the faculty of Engineering, and the engineers institute of Australia agreed that I do meet the requirements to call myself an "Engineer" - with all that means.
- stygiansonic 12y ago
  I was agreeing with you, which is why I started out my comment with "Not sure why you're getting downvoted..." The rest of my comment was just elaborating on what I imagined you'd meant by your comment, to hopefully detract from your downvoters.
- swatow 12y ago
  But why would a person need formal accreditation of they felt that they did possess the required background (assuming it was legal, which it is in Australia and the US). You are trying to impose the standards of the people who granted you that degree, on everyone else. But it's not justified. To an employer, your accreditation counts for almost nothing when comparing otherwise similar degrees (e.g. a CS degree). And you don't need to take a course in ethics to understand ethical issues or act ethically.
  - grecy 12y ago
    > To an employer, your accreditation counts for almost nothing when comparing otherwise similar degrees (e.g. a CS degree) You obviously have no understanding of the different between a CS degree and a Software Engineering Degreee. For starters, mine was a full year longer than regular CS. I did engineering Math the entire time with the other Engineers, and I did courses like digital electric design and digital signal image processing that the CS'ers didn't. It's like a CS degree on steroids.
    - swatow 12y ago

TheCoelacanth 12y ago

Probably because the two largest English speaking countries in the world place almost no restrictions on using the title "Engineer" whatsoever, so people from those countries get annoyed when people authoritatively state that you must not use the title "Engineer" unless you are properly certified, neglecting to mention that their authoritative statements apply to perhaps 10% of their audience.

tjl 12y ago
There's a movement in the UK to protect the title of engineer. Plus, in the US, it varies from state to state. For example, see Case Number: B-32981 on this page http://engineers.texas.gov/da/da021512.html http://engineers.texas.gov/da/da021512.html They were fined for using the term "foundation engineer". From a quick search it looks like California is one state where you're not allowed to use it if you're not licensed. I'm guessing a number of people are actually in violation of this, but are unlikely to be fined unless it's reported.
- walshemj 12y ago
  That might be nice but to be blunt what has the Engineering council done for the last say 100 years. I cant see any Uk government actually having the will to pass any laws enforcing this the number of STEM graduates in parliament and the house of lords is shockingly low They also need to rescue Apprentices form its use by unskilled employers no Tesco you cannot have a Apprentices in shelf stacking to dodge paying the minimum wage.
stygiansonic 12y ago
Perhaps that is the reason, but it doesn't necessarily make it right nor justify it. Would it be better for the industry (and society in general) if the titles of "doctor", "lawyer" or "accountant" weren't as regulated/protected? Should we care if people are annoyed that they can't self-label themselves as one of these titles?

grecy 12y ago

> To call oneself an engineer without having had the common/basic education in various topics like calculus, linear algebra or statistics is at best misleading, since an accredited engineering program would have provided exposure to such topics. That was my point entirely. I did study all of those things, my degree was under the faculty of Engineering, and the engineers institute of Australia agreed that I do meet the requirements to call myself an "Engineer" - with all that means.

stygiansonic 12y ago
I was agreeing with you, which is why I started out my comment with "Not sure why you're getting downvoted..." The rest of my comment was just elaborating on what I imagined you'd meant by your comment, to hopefully detract from your downvoters.
swatow 12y ago
But why would a person need formal accreditation of they felt that they did possess the required background (assuming it was legal, which it is in Australia and the US). You are trying to impose the standards of the people who granted you that degree, on everyone else. But it's not justified. To an employer, your accreditation counts for almost nothing when comparing otherwise similar degrees (e.g. a CS degree). And you don't need to take a course in ethics to understand ethical issues or act ethically.
- grecy 12y ago
  > To an employer, your accreditation counts for almost nothing when comparing otherwise similar degrees (e.g. a CS degree) You obviously have no understanding of the different between a CS degree and a Software Engineering Degreee. For starters, mine was a full year longer than regular CS. I did engineering Math the entire time with the other Engineers, and I did courses like digital electric design and digital signal image processing that the CS'ers didn't. It's like a CS degree on steroids.
  - swatow 12y ago