14 ms·

Wow, that disparity between developer and engineer... I'm not an H1B worker, but does this mean I should start calling myself an Engineer?

grecy 12y ago
Only if you're a certified Engineer. I studied Software Engineering, and I'm accredited by the Institute of Engineers in Australia.
- hyperliner 12y ago
  (USA) I know many people who call themselves "engineers" who studied HTML and JavaScript and develop websites or web apps. I know many "engineers" who graduated from "Software Engineering" or "Computer Science" but have no governmental certification. Unlike Civil Engineering or other engineering disciplines, in the US software work is not as regulated, though I have seen regulations when dealing with Government work, calling for "engineers" to actually be accepted by a "official body of engineers." Basically, in software in US, you can be an "engineer" and not get in trouble if you are not.
- ryanSrich 12y ago
  > Only if you're a certified Engineer Not really. If you've got a CS or SE degree you are certainly an engineer. If you've built systems and worked in the industry solving difficult problems you are an engineer. In the US we don't need an expensive piece of paper telling us what we're qualified to call ourselves. EDIT: To be clear I'm referring to software engineering. Not all engineering. I thought that was obvious based on the context of the post but I guess not.
  - Dirlewanger 12y ago
    Problem with that is that, at least compared to actual engineers who need to take the FE exam to be called one, it's a complete misnomer and to be frank, a little embarrassing. Most CS/SE programs share no classes with engineering programs except maybe calc 1/2 and one or two others. It just feels wrong referring to myself as a software engineer because a. there's no formal definition of one and b. it's unfair to those who actually are engineers. I didn't slog through statics/Differential EQs/vibrations/Calc 3/Mechatronics/Embedded Systems/etc. like some of my friends, and on a nominal level it's unfair to them.
    - toephu2 12y ago
      But I was a CS major and had to slog through diff. EQs, calc, physics, linear algebera, etc..
      - tjl 12y ago
        In Canada, it would be against the law for a CS major to call oneself an "engineer". At the University of Waterloo, there's actually a Software Engineering program that's joint between the CS and Electrical & Computer Engineering departments. It's been licensed by the accreditation board for engineering programs.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - codeonfire 12y ago
    There are some legal restrictions in some places so that apartment buildings and bridges don't get built by the local guy with a backhoe and then collapse.
    - cortesoft 12y ago
      If they hire a software engineer to build a bridge, they have more problems than the job title. I don't really follow this argument, since it isn't like all the 'certified' engineers are interchangeable. You would have just as many problems if you hired an electrical engineer to build your bridge as you would if you hired a non-certified software developer to do it. Are people really worried about software developers trying to illegally build building? I mean, we don't legally limit who can call themselves an engineer in the US, but you still need certifications to actually BUILD something that requires engineering work. That seems like a much more effective control than limiting who can call themselves engineers.
  - tjl 12y ago
    Did you have to take a course on ethics? What about software and society? In Canada, in order to get accreditation as an engineering program (including software engineering) there's a set of requirements to be taught. One is a course on technology's impact on society. Also, in Ontario in order to get professionally licensed as an engineer (which is required before you can call yourself an engineer, legally) one has to take an exam on ethics & law as they pertain to engineering. So, we study case law and various ethical situations. People have been taken to court for calling themselves engineers if they're not officially licensed. This is why the MCSE is no longer an acronym as there was a court case about it. There's a few kinds of engineers that don't have to be licensed as they pre-date the law (e.g., stationary engineers who take care of things like boilers), but they typically have their own regulatory organizations.
    - cbhl 12y ago
      In California, people call themselves "Software Engineers" all willy-nilly (even if they haven't graduated from high school) because the term isn't regulated down here.
    - swatow 12y ago
      Can you give an example of an ethical problem that might be faced by a software engineer, that is covered by these courses, and that these courses would enable a person to deal with significantly better.
      - ktran03 12y ago
        I took that ethics course. I don't think that course really made much of a difference in anyone's career. The material was mostly common sense ethical questions.
      - tjl 12y ago
        There were definitely a number in both the practice law and ethics exam and the official exam that I took. I can't recall them off-hand, though. You can see the Code of Ethics for Professional Engineers Ontario in the actual law. http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_900941_e.htm http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_900... See section 77. Generally, it often revolves around 77.2.i, "A practitioner shall, regard the practitioner’s duty to public welfare as paramount" One could see a conflict come up between the company's and the public's interest. For example, you get asked to write the code in a way that takes less time, but could expose the client's data to hackers.
  - stygiansonic 12y ago
    The certification is more than just "an expensive piece of paper". In some jurisdictions (Canada), an engineering accreditation board has to certify that the courses taught during the course of obtaining an engineering degree contain certain material - thus enforcing a standard across all degrees, regardless of the university/institution. Without this, it's arguable that having an "engineering degree" (in a certain discipline, say software eng) from one university would not all be comparable to having one from another institution - thus decreasing the overall quality of the industry. I'm not saying having the standard solves all these sort of problems, but I am saying that it makes things better.
- Schweigi 12y ago
  At least in Switzerland those job titles are made up by the companies. Additionally since the Bolognia process people get a degree as Bsc or Msc. in Computer Science while the older degrees do contain the title prefix "Dipl. Ing ..." (e.g. Engineer with specialization in Software Development). So while the degrees are protected the job title are basically totally random.
- stygiansonic 12y ago
  Not sure why you're getting downvoted, other than maybe because the original topic is US-centric. In many countries (not sure about the US), it is illegal to call yourself an engineer, regardless of what discipline it is. In Canada, various provincial bodies (PEO in Ontario) regulate the use of the title "engineer", including derivatives of it such as "software engineer". [0] Some of this might seem heavy-handed (see objection to the MCSE term[1]) and I used to think so, until seeing various articles like this one.[2] Having the term regulated is useful in establishing a minimum or baseline of knowledge that one has to have. To call oneself an engineer without having had the common/basic education in various topics like calculus, linear algebra or statistics is at best misleading, since an accredited engineering program would have provided exposure to such topics. Imagine having a conversation with an engineer who did not understand the difference (or was not even aware of the difference) between mean, median and mode when it came to categorizing request-response times? I'm not trying to knock on self-learning as it's a valuable skill to have, just the concept of title inflation. There are exceptions, of course. For example, someone with a Comp. Sci degree would likely possess the requisite knowledge and be equivalent to someone with a software engineering degree in the profession, and this is where perhaps the actions of PEO et al. are a bit overbearing. 0. http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/2266/la_id/1.htm http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/2266/la_id/1.htm 1. http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/26340/la_id/1.htm http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/26340/la_id/1.htm 2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8996024 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8996024
  - TheCoelacanth 12y ago
    Probably because the two largest English speaking countries in the world place almost no restrictions on using the title "Engineer" whatsoever, so people from those countries get annoyed when people authoritatively state that you must not use the title "Engineer" unless you are properly certified, neglecting to mention that their authoritative statements apply to perhaps 10% of their audience.
    - tjl 12y ago
      There's a movement in the UK to protect the title of engineer. Plus, in the US, it varies from state to state. For example, see Case Number: B-32981 on this page http://engineers.texas.gov/da/da021512.html http://engineers.texas.gov/da/da021512.html They were fined for using the term "foundation engineer". From a quick search it looks like California is one state where you're not allowed to use it if you're not licensed. I'm guessing a number of people are actually in violation of this, but are unlikely to be fined unless it's reported.
- arenaninja 12y ago
  I should've specified: I'm in the US, where Engineer/Programmer/Developer are mostly interchangeable (in fact I've read a ton of blog posts on which is the better term, none of which arrive at the same conclusion). I'm positive some BigCorp has a 100 page definition differentiating these, however.
snowwrestler 12y ago
Sure, but that does not mean potential employers will agree with you.
awesome_work_ 12y ago
If you are in the US, yes.
- tjl 12y ago
  It depends on where you are in the US. In some states, it's against the law to call yourself an engineer without being licensed. From what I could find with a quick Google search it looks like California is one. But it relies on reporting, so if no one reports it to the licensing board, you're unlikely to be fined.
  - TheCoelacanth 12y ago
    > From what I could find with a quick Google search it looks like California is one. Could you provide a source for that? I know that California regulates the title "Professional Engineer" or providing "engineering services" but I'm not aware of any regulation preventing someone from using engineer in job titles.
    - tjl 12y ago
      The first reference on California and the title "engineer" I saw was, http://engineerboards.com/index.php?showtopic=4328 http://engineerboards.com/index.php?showtopic=4328
      - TheCoelacanth 12y ago
        From that forum thread: > The California Board does regulate certain engineering titles, but not all. For example, they don't regulate the plain-vanilla title of "engineer". They also don't regulate titles like "aerospace engineer" or "project engineer". > The law only gives them authority over certain specific titles, as per Section 6732 of the Professional Engineer's Act: >QUOTE >It is unlawful for anyone other than a professional engineer licensed under this chapter to stamp or seal any plans, specifications, plats, reports, or other documents with the seal or stamp of a professional engineer, or in any manner, use the title “professional engineer,” “licensed engineer,” “registered engineer,” or “consulting engineer,” or any of the following branch titles: “agricultural engineer,” “chemical engineer,” “civil engineer,” “control system engineer,” “electrical engineer,” “fire protection engineer,” “industrial engineer,” “mechanical engineer,” “metallurgical engineer,” “nuclear engineer,” “petroleum engineer,” or “traffic engineer,” or any combination of these words and phrases or abbreviations thereof unless licensed under this chapter. So, it wouldn't apply to simply a generic "Engineer" or a "Software Engineer"
pnathan 12y ago
In the US. YES. YES. YES. Work for companies that hire Engineers, not Programmers, or Developers.

grecy 12y ago

Only if you're a certified Engineer. I studied Software Engineering, and I'm accredited by the Institute of Engineers in Australia.

hyperliner 12y ago
(USA) I know many people who call themselves "engineers" who studied HTML and JavaScript and develop websites or web apps. I know many "engineers" who graduated from "Software Engineering" or "Computer Science" but have no governmental certification. Unlike Civil Engineering or other engineering disciplines, in the US software work is not as regulated, though I have seen regulations when dealing with Government work, calling for "engineers" to actually be accepted by a "official body of engineers." Basically, in software in US, you can be an "engineer" and not get in trouble if you are not.
ryanSrich 12y ago
> Only if you're a certified Engineer Not really. If you've got a CS or SE degree you are certainly an engineer. If you've built systems and worked in the industry solving difficult problems you are an engineer. In the US we don't need an expensive piece of paper telling us what we're qualified to call ourselves. EDIT: To be clear I'm referring to software engineering. Not all engineering. I thought that was obvious based on the context of the post but I guess not.
- Dirlewanger 12y ago
  Problem with that is that, at least compared to actual engineers who need to take the FE exam to be called one, it's a complete misnomer and to be frank, a little embarrassing. Most CS/SE programs share no classes with engineering programs except maybe calc 1/2 and one or two others. It just feels wrong referring to myself as a software engineer because a. there's no formal definition of one and b. it's unfair to those who actually are engineers. I didn't slog through statics/Differential EQs/vibrations/Calc 3/Mechatronics/Embedded Systems/etc. like some of my friends, and on a nominal level it's unfair to them.
  - toephu2 12y ago
    But I was a CS major and had to slog through diff. EQs, calc, physics, linear algebera, etc..
    - tjl 12y ago
      In Canada, it would be against the law for a CS major to call oneself an "engineer". At the University of Waterloo, there's actually a Software Engineering program that's joint between the CS and Electrical & Computer Engineering departments. It's been licensed by the accreditation board for engineering programs.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- codeonfire 12y ago
  There are some legal restrictions in some places so that apartment buildings and bridges don't get built by the local guy with a backhoe and then collapse.
  - cortesoft 12y ago
    If they hire a software engineer to build a bridge, they have more problems than the job title. I don't really follow this argument, since it isn't like all the 'certified' engineers are interchangeable. You would have just as many problems if you hired an electrical engineer to build your bridge as you would if you hired a non-certified software developer to do it. Are people really worried about software developers trying to illegally build building? I mean, we don't legally limit who can call themselves an engineer in the US, but you still need certifications to actually BUILD something that requires engineering work. That seems like a much more effective control than limiting who can call themselves engineers.
- tjl 12y ago
  Did you have to take a course on ethics? What about software and society? In Canada, in order to get accreditation as an engineering program (including software engineering) there's a set of requirements to be taught. One is a course on technology's impact on society. Also, in Ontario in order to get professionally licensed as an engineer (which is required before you can call yourself an engineer, legally) one has to take an exam on ethics & law as they pertain to engineering. So, we study case law and various ethical situations. People have been taken to court for calling themselves engineers if they're not officially licensed. This is why the MCSE is no longer an acronym as there was a court case about it. There's a few kinds of engineers that don't have to be licensed as they pre-date the law (e.g., stationary engineers who take care of things like boilers), but they typically have their own regulatory organizations.
  - cbhl 12y ago
    In California, people call themselves "Software Engineers" all willy-nilly (even if they haven't graduated from high school) because the term isn't regulated down here.
  - swatow 12y ago
    Can you give an example of an ethical problem that might be faced by a software engineer, that is covered by these courses, and that these courses would enable a person to deal with significantly better.
    - ktran03 12y ago
      I took that ethics course. I don't think that course really made much of a difference in anyone's career. The material was mostly common sense ethical questions.
    - tjl 12y ago
      There were definitely a number in both the practice law and ethics exam and the official exam that I took. I can't recall them off-hand, though. You can see the Code of Ethics for Professional Engineers Ontario in the actual law. http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_900941_e.htm http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_900... See section 77. Generally, it often revolves around 77.2.i, "A practitioner shall, regard the practitioner’s duty to public welfare as paramount" One could see a conflict come up between the company's and the public's interest. For example, you get asked to write the code in a way that takes less time, but could expose the client's data to hackers.
- stygiansonic 12y ago
  The certification is more than just "an expensive piece of paper". In some jurisdictions (Canada), an engineering accreditation board has to certify that the courses taught during the course of obtaining an engineering degree contain certain material - thus enforcing a standard across all degrees, regardless of the university/institution. Without this, it's arguable that having an "engineering degree" (in a certain discipline, say software eng) from one university would not all be comparable to having one from another institution - thus decreasing the overall quality of the industry. I'm not saying having the standard solves all these sort of problems, but I am saying that it makes things better.
Schweigi 12y ago
At least in Switzerland those job titles are made up by the companies. Additionally since the Bolognia process people get a degree as Bsc or Msc. in Computer Science while the older degrees do contain the title prefix "Dipl. Ing ..." (e.g. Engineer with specialization in Software Development). So while the degrees are protected the job title are basically totally random.
stygiansonic 12y ago
Not sure why you're getting downvoted, other than maybe because the original topic is US-centric. In many countries (not sure about the US), it is illegal to call yourself an engineer, regardless of what discipline it is. In Canada, various provincial bodies (PEO in Ontario) regulate the use of the title "engineer", including derivatives of it such as "software engineer". [0] Some of this might seem heavy-handed (see objection to the MCSE term[1]) and I used to think so, until seeing various articles like this one.[2] Having the term regulated is useful in establishing a minimum or baseline of knowledge that one has to have. To call oneself an engineer without having had the common/basic education in various topics like calculus, linear algebra or statistics is at best misleading, since an accredited engineering program would have provided exposure to such topics. Imagine having a conversation with an engineer who did not understand the difference (or was not even aware of the difference) between mean, median and mode when it came to categorizing request-response times? I'm not trying to knock on self-learning as it's a valuable skill to have, just the concept of title inflation. There are exceptions, of course. For example, someone with a Comp. Sci degree would likely possess the requisite knowledge and be equivalent to someone with a software engineering degree in the profession, and this is where perhaps the actions of PEO et al. are a bit overbearing. 0. http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/2266/la_id/1.htm http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/2266/la_id/1.htm 1. http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/26340/la_id/1.htm http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/26340/la_id/1.htm 2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8996024 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8996024
- TheCoelacanth 12y ago
  Probably because the two largest English speaking countries in the world place almost no restrictions on using the title "Engineer" whatsoever, so people from those countries get annoyed when people authoritatively state that you must not use the title "Engineer" unless you are properly certified, neglecting to mention that their authoritative statements apply to perhaps 10% of their audience.
  - tjl 12y ago
    There's a movement in the UK to protect the title of engineer. Plus, in the US, it varies from state to state. For example, see Case Number: B-32981 on this page http://engineers.texas.gov/da/da021512.html http://engineers.texas.gov/da/da021512.html They were fined for using the term "foundation engineer". From a quick search it looks like California is one state where you're not allowed to use it if you're not licensed. I'm guessing a number of people are actually in violation of this, but are unlikely to be fined unless it's reported.
arenaninja 12y ago
I should've specified: I'm in the US, where Engineer/Programmer/Developer are mostly interchangeable (in fact I've read a ton of blog posts on which is the better term, none of which arrive at the same conclusion). I'm positive some BigCorp has a 100 page definition differentiating these, however.

snowwrestler 12y ago

Sure, but that does not mean potential employers will agree with you.

awesome_work_ 12y ago

If you are in the US, yes.

tjl 12y ago
It depends on where you are in the US. In some states, it's against the law to call yourself an engineer without being licensed. From what I could find with a quick Google search it looks like California is one. But it relies on reporting, so if no one reports it to the licensing board, you're unlikely to be fined.
- TheCoelacanth 12y ago
  > From what I could find with a quick Google search it looks like California is one. Could you provide a source for that? I know that California regulates the title "Professional Engineer" or providing "engineering services" but I'm not aware of any regulation preventing someone from using engineer in job titles.
  - tjl 12y ago
    The first reference on California and the title "engineer" I saw was, http://engineerboards.com/index.php?showtopic=4328 http://engineerboards.com/index.php?showtopic=4328
    - TheCoelacanth 12y ago
      From that forum thread: > The California Board does regulate certain engineering titles, but not all. For example, they don't regulate the plain-vanilla title of "engineer". They also don't regulate titles like "aerospace engineer" or "project engineer". > The law only gives them authority over certain specific titles, as per Section 6732 of the Professional Engineer's Act: >QUOTE >It is unlawful for anyone other than a professional engineer licensed under this chapter to stamp or seal any plans, specifications, plats, reports, or other documents with the seal or stamp of a professional engineer, or in any manner, use the title “professional engineer,” “licensed engineer,” “registered engineer,” or “consulting engineer,” or any of the following branch titles: “agricultural engineer,” “chemical engineer,” “civil engineer,” “control system engineer,” “electrical engineer,” “fire protection engineer,” “industrial engineer,” “mechanical engineer,” “metallurgical engineer,” “nuclear engineer,” “petroleum engineer,” or “traffic engineer,” or any combination of these words and phrases or abbreviations thereof unless licensed under this chapter. So, it wouldn't apply to simply a generic "Engineer" or a "Software Engineer"

pnathan 12y ago

In the US. YES. YES. YES. Work for companies that hire Engineers, not Programmers, or Developers.