8 ms·

This gets to the rub of prevailing wage. You are hiring a developer, do you call her an engineer where the prevailing wage is 87k or do you call her a programm

This gets to the rub of prevailing wage. You are hiring a developer, do you call her an engineer where the prevailing wage is 87k or do you call her a programmer where the prevailing wage is 61k? This type of fraud is difficult to prove and there probably isn't even anyone responsible in the government to verify or investigate issues. EDIT: forgot to mention that the prevailing wage can be determined by salary surveys provided by the employer themselves (!!) during the labor application, giving even more incentive for tech companies to suppress wages by any means possible.

tjl 12y ago
In Canada, you wouldn't be allowed to call them an engineer if they didn't have professional certification as an engineer. It's against the law. People have been taken to court over it.
- hackerboos 12y ago
  Plenty of companies in Canada offering Software Engineer positions and asking for a degree in CS. Now I wouldn't class a CS degree as a 'certification in engineering'.
  - tjl 12y ago
    It's certainly something that could get them in trouble as it is against the law. It relies on reporting, so if no one reports the company, nothing specific will be done. For example, Microsoft lost a lawsuit regarding the MCSE designation. http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/21643/la_id/1.htm http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/21643/la_id/1.htm
- balls187 12y ago
  IIRC, the US believe is similar, however the title engineer can be bestowed by a company to an employee while they are working for the company.
  - kevin_thibedeau 12y ago
    No. There are no real restrictions on the title of engineer in the US. In some industries (health, civil eng.) you need a PE for public safety reasons but it is rare for engineers to have them in general. A PE can be hard to get in many places because you need at least one coworker with a PE who can vouch for your work. Without one it is an impossibility. A system like Canada's would be nice to have to eliminate the cheapening of the title.
    - tjl 12y ago
      Apparently, it varies from state to state which isn't a surprise. http://engineerboards.com/index.php?showtopic=4328 http://engineerboards.com/index.php?showtopic=4328
    - swatow 12y ago
      >A system like Canada's would be nice to have to eliminate the cheapening of the title. Are the egos of the "real" engineers really worth the additional burden of this regulation? At best, it stops people using a word that was coveted by others. At worst it means more regulatory hoops to jump through when there was no problem in the first place.
negrit 12y ago
There is. Lately, a lot of the top companies sponsoring for visa are getting in trouble because of fraud[1]. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304527504579167490918208338 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023045275045791674...
- whyaduck 12y ago
  Nitpick - Infosys was fined because they were misusing the B-1 visa program, not the H1-B visa program. B-1 visas are the kind of visa that, e.g., a manager would need to visit the U.S. and meet in person with local personnel and customers. Apparently Infosys was bringing in foreign nationals on B-1's and they were doing software development in the U.S. The company denies wrongdoing, but they settled.
- ojbyrne 12y ago
  "Lately" is a stretch. Looking at that story the fraud occurred in 2008-2011.
liquidise 12y ago
I have known plenty of developers who may be great at coding a task but fall flat when architecting the same systems. There are often tradeoffs that must be made for business or technology purposes. These tradeoffs are generally product or engineering decisions that i would hesitate having a developer make. There are just functional differences between developing software and engineering it. The sooner the software industry recognizes these differences, the better served we will all be.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > I have known plenty of developers who may be great at coding a task but fall flat when architecting the same systems. AFAIK, the whole reason for the role title "software developer" is to indicate a breadth that goes beyond mere coding and subsumes system design and requirements analysis. So a software developer shouldn't fall down on that task.
- sbov 12y ago
  One company's developer is another company's engineer. Most companies name them one or another and don't have both positions in house. This is because they tend to do the same thing regardless of title, its more about what the company wants to call them. Edit: other than that, what you seem to be speaking of is more about experience. An experienced "developer" will have a better time at architecting a solution than an inexperienced "engineer".
  - bones6 12y ago
    I have seen this at my jobs. Usually the titles are defined by HR so they can set the pay range to some sort of industry standard for that title. They often do not reflect the type of work being done to a highly specific degree. Some places are probably great at this classification of employees, but I've yet to see it personally.
shas3 12y ago
Why is there an implicit assumption that the H1B visa program engenders fraud? A lot of H1B discussions on HN focus on fraud and avoid talking about legitimate talented foreigners because that stuff is not as interesting. H1B discussions on HN are like the crime beat in newspapers. Further, 'H1B' seems like a catchall term for hating on immigrant labor in the software industry. Here are some examples on HN that demonstrate bigoted generalizations and ill-informed hate on H1B-workers [1,2,3]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8687804 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8687804 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8651850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8651850 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8637756 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8637756
- negrit 12y ago
  The facts 6 of the top 10 H1Bs sponsor are: - Indian companies - Using cheap labor - Paying significantly less then other companies. - Responsible for almost 50% of all H1B applications Driving the salaries by immigration is an historical complaint worldwide. HackerNews or not.
  - kd0amg 12y ago
    For more info, see: http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/pdf/H-1B_Selected_Statistics_FY2014_Q4.pdf http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/pdf/H-1B_Selected_Sta...
  - _delirium 12y ago
    If the goal really is to enable highly qualified people to come to the U.S. (separate from the usual immigration process) wouldn't a fairly simple tweak just be to take the wage into account in the allocation? There's currently a fixed quota, with two things that go into allocating it: 1) offers not paying the "prevailing wage" are disqualified; and 2) the remaining offers are allocated in first-come, first-serve fashion until the quota is reached, with no preference to good vs. bad offers. Seems you could collapse those two issues by just saying: the 50,000 slots (or however many there will be) are auctioned off, or allocated in order of highest salary offer, or something similar. In theory the "invisible hand of the market" ought to then allocate the slots to where foreign talent is most needed, and the companies using it for cheap labor won't be able to outbid Google/etc. for the slots.

tjl 12y ago

In Canada, you wouldn't be allowed to call them an engineer if they didn't have professional certification as an engineer. It's against the law. People have been taken to court over it.

hackerboos 12y ago
Plenty of companies in Canada offering Software Engineer positions and asking for a degree in CS. Now I wouldn't class a CS degree as a 'certification in engineering'.
- tjl 12y ago
  It's certainly something that could get them in trouble as it is against the law. It relies on reporting, so if no one reports the company, nothing specific will be done. For example, Microsoft lost a lawsuit regarding the MCSE designation. http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/21643/la_id/1.htm http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/21643/la_id/1.htm
balls187 12y ago
IIRC, the US believe is similar, however the title engineer can be bestowed by a company to an employee while they are working for the company.
- kevin_thibedeau 12y ago
  No. There are no real restrictions on the title of engineer in the US. In some industries (health, civil eng.) you need a PE for public safety reasons but it is rare for engineers to have them in general. A PE can be hard to get in many places because you need at least one coworker with a PE who can vouch for your work. Without one it is an impossibility. A system like Canada's would be nice to have to eliminate the cheapening of the title.
  - tjl 12y ago
    Apparently, it varies from state to state which isn't a surprise. http://engineerboards.com/index.php?showtopic=4328 http://engineerboards.com/index.php?showtopic=4328
  - swatow 12y ago
    >A system like Canada's would be nice to have to eliminate the cheapening of the title. Are the egos of the "real" engineers really worth the additional burden of this regulation? At best, it stops people using a word that was coveted by others. At worst it means more regulatory hoops to jump through when there was no problem in the first place.

negrit 12y ago

There is. Lately, a lot of the top companies sponsoring for visa are getting in trouble because of fraud[1]. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304527504579167490918208338 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023045275045791674...

whyaduck 12y ago
Nitpick - Infosys was fined because they were misusing the B-1 visa program, not the H1-B visa program. B-1 visas are the kind of visa that, e.g., a manager would need to visit the U.S. and meet in person with local personnel and customers. Apparently Infosys was bringing in foreign nationals on B-1's and they were doing software development in the U.S. The company denies wrongdoing, but they settled.
ojbyrne 12y ago
"Lately" is a stretch. Looking at that story the fraud occurred in 2008-2011.

liquidise 12y ago

I have known plenty of developers who may be great at coding a task but fall flat when architecting the same systems. There are often tradeoffs that must be made for business or technology purposes. These tradeoffs are generally product or engineering decisions that i would hesitate having a developer make. There are just functional differences between developing software and engineering it. The sooner the software industry recognizes these differences, the better served we will all be.

dragonwriter 12y ago
> I have known plenty of developers who may be great at coding a task but fall flat when architecting the same systems. AFAIK, the whole reason for the role title "software developer" is to indicate a breadth that goes beyond mere coding and subsumes system design and requirements analysis. So a software developer shouldn't fall down on that task.
sbov 12y ago
One company's developer is another company's engineer. Most companies name them one or another and don't have both positions in house. This is because they tend to do the same thing regardless of title, its more about what the company wants to call them. Edit: other than that, what you seem to be speaking of is more about experience. An experienced "developer" will have a better time at architecting a solution than an inexperienced "engineer".
- bones6 12y ago
  I have seen this at my jobs. Usually the titles are defined by HR so they can set the pay range to some sort of industry standard for that title. They often do not reflect the type of work being done to a highly specific degree. Some places are probably great at this classification of employees, but I've yet to see it personally.

shas3 12y ago

Why is there an implicit assumption that the H1B visa program engenders fraud? A lot of H1B discussions on HN focus on fraud and avoid talking about legitimate talented foreigners because that stuff is not as interesting. H1B discussions on HN are like the crime beat in newspapers. Further, 'H1B' seems like a catchall term for hating on immigrant labor in the software industry. Here are some examples on HN that demonstrate bigoted generalizations and ill-informed hate on H1B-workers [1,2,3]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8687804 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8687804 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8651850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8651850 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8637756 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8637756

negrit 12y ago
The facts 6 of the top 10 H1Bs sponsor are: - Indian companies - Using cheap labor - Paying significantly less then other companies. - Responsible for almost 50% of all H1B applications Driving the salaries by immigration is an historical complaint worldwide. HackerNews or not.
- kd0amg 12y ago
  For more info, see: http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/pdf/H-1B_Selected_Statistics_FY2014_Q4.pdf http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/pdf/H-1B_Selected_Sta...
- _delirium 12y ago
  If the goal really is to enable highly qualified people to come to the U.S. (separate from the usual immigration process) wouldn't a fairly simple tweak just be to take the wage into account in the allocation? There's currently a fixed quota, with two things that go into allocating it: 1) offers not paying the "prevailing wage" are disqualified; and 2) the remaining offers are allocated in first-come, first-serve fashion until the quota is reached, with no preference to good vs. bad offers. Seems you could collapse those two issues by just saying: the 50,000 slots (or however many there will be) are auctioned off, or allocated in order of highest salary offer, or something similar. In theory the "invisible hand of the market" ought to then allocate the slots to where foreign talent is most needed, and the companies using it for cheap labor won't be able to outbid Google/etc. for the slots.