4 ms·

If you are an engineer, developer, or programmer the only way to fight the power on this is to refuse to accept offers from companies who treat their employees

by wyclif 12y ago

If you are an engineer, developer, or programmer the only way to fight the power on this is to refuse to accept offers from companies who treat their employees like cattle. It's amazing that I still hear founders getting very upset about the fact that they can't hire, while enacting "open office" or "bullpen" policies like the one at Yodle.

001sky 12y ago
Short of trolling the recruitment process, this is hard to do in reality.
- wyclif 12y ago
  How exactly is it hard to do? Trolling the process isn't necessary. During the interview, you simply ask about the work environment. And you don't have to wait for the interview to ask, you can do it in an email.
  - knowaveragejoe 12y ago
    I think he's talking about doing this on such a scale that it has a measurable impact on the trend.
- dogecoinbase 12y ago
  I interview 3-4 times/month in the bay area, as a way of keeping myself in tune with the interview process for when I do want a new gig, seeing what new tech trends are popping up in interviews (and what specific gotcha questions are popular), and so on. Generally I don't intend to take the job. It could certainly be interpreted as trolling the process, but I've taken the opportunity to note things I didn't love about the company when I decline offers (I see it as the mirror of wanting a company to be specific about weaknesses if they choose not to hire me), including open or noisy office space, the appearance of high pressure to work unnecessarily lengthy hours, poor clarity in equity granting, and lack of diversity.
  - Nicholas_C 12y ago
    >I interview 3-4 times/month in the bay area, as a way of keeping myself in tune with the interview process for when I do want a new gig Sounds like you're wasting a lot of people's time and resources.
    - shawn-furyan 12y ago
      Companies could obviate the need for this sort of reconnaissance by being more open about pay expectations and honest about experience requirements. They aren't because they perceive a benefit to holding an information advantage over applicants. If this information advantage wasn't widely sought by firms, then there would be no advantage to interviewing several times a month. So really, any given firm could avoid their time being wasted by the gp. But presumably they would rather have their time wasted than to give up their information advantage, so it doesn't really make sense to lay all the responsibility for wasting people's time at the feet of the gp. Most candidates just accept the information disadvantage. The gp doesn't, but that's merely a rational response to the incentives put forth by the job market.
      - geebee 12y ago
        This is an aside, but I think there's a strong case to be made for publishing salaries, with names. I know it's an intimidating step, but this information is easily found on line for public service workers. The sky hasn't fallen, and there are a number of real benefits. One possible angle - perhaps openly publishing payroll info (name, title, pay) should be a requirement for all companies that receive an H1B or other work visa. Keep in mind, there is precedent. Information about how much a house sold for is public. Imagine if, when you were selling your house, you only had a bit of information gleaned from conversations with neighbors here and there, whereas the buyer had a massive database at his or her disposal with exact prices for every house sold in your neighborhood in the last 50 years. You'd be at a massive disadvantage. That's the situation employees are in.
        hga 12y ago
- joesmo 12y ago
  How is rejecting a bad offer trolling? Please explain.
- Retric 12y ago
  I make it vary clear that an open office plan bump by salary requirements by 20k/year. It's not really trolling IMO.
geebee 12y ago
Agreed, though I actually think that this happens earlier in the decision tree. A lot of people with the talent to be top software developers never enter the field in the first place, as part of a rational market response to pay, career prospects, and working conditions (keep in mind, we're talking about an academically talented and hard working group of people here). I don't think it's open offices per se (though they aren't exactly improving the appeal of software dev jobs), so much as the employment conditions that lead to imposing open offices on a class of worker that so clearly benefits from a quiet, focused environment.
- poikniok 12y ago
  Out of curiosity, what exactly are the other fields that top people would enter? Are you thinking of finance, law, or medicine, or something else?
  - geebee 12y ago
    All of the above and more. I do want to be sure I don't come off as claiming that there's no good reason to be a developer, I just don't think that the claims that there is a puzzling shortage of developers hold up when you consider the other options available. If it's hard to hire software developers, that's because the people talented enough to do the job are engaged in a rational, market based decision to do something else instead. One good place to start is here: http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/rankings/the-100-best-jobs http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/rankings/the-100-b... And compare salaries in high cost regions, rather than comparing national salaries. For instance, a dental hygienist in San Francisco earns, at the median, $112,970, a registered nurse in SF earns $127,670, and a Software Developer in San Francisco earns $114,400. So a software developer in SF, ground zero for the worker shortage, earns a bit more than a dental hygienist, and considerably less than a registered nurse. The median Lawyer in SF (not necessarily a good job, I'll admit) is quite a bit higher, and of course Physicians earn far more. I think that if you look through the data, it's pretty clear that software developers are paid decent but not remarkable salaries. And I'm not complaining about good salaries for nurses and dental hygienists, that's absolutely great by me. I just think we need to stop acting like there's some great mystery behind why people with choice (i.e., whose career options aren't limited by where and how they can get a work visa to the US) aren't going into software development.
discardorama 12y ago
I remember being invited to Facebook (their PA office, before they moved), and was horrified to see the row-upon-row of folding tables being used as desks, with barely enough elbow room. I lost my desire to work there right away. On the other hand, if I had joined then, ye olde bank balance would have been much fatter. ;-)
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

by wyclif 12y ago

001sky 12y ago

Short of trolling the recruitment process, this is hard to do in reality.

wyclif 12y ago
How exactly is it hard to do? Trolling the process isn't necessary. During the interview, you simply ask about the work environment. And you don't have to wait for the interview to ask, you can do it in an email.
- knowaveragejoe 12y ago
  I think he's talking about doing this on such a scale that it has a measurable impact on the trend.
dogecoinbase 12y ago
I interview 3-4 times/month in the bay area, as a way of keeping myself in tune with the interview process for when I do want a new gig, seeing what new tech trends are popping up in interviews (and what specific gotcha questions are popular), and so on. Generally I don't intend to take the job. It could certainly be interpreted as trolling the process, but I've taken the opportunity to note things I didn't love about the company when I decline offers (I see it as the mirror of wanting a company to be specific about weaknesses if they choose not to hire me), including open or noisy office space, the appearance of high pressure to work unnecessarily lengthy hours, poor clarity in equity granting, and lack of diversity.
- Nicholas_C 12y ago
  >I interview 3-4 times/month in the bay area, as a way of keeping myself in tune with the interview process for when I do want a new gig Sounds like you're wasting a lot of people's time and resources.
  - shawn-furyan 12y ago
    Companies could obviate the need for this sort of reconnaissance by being more open about pay expectations and honest about experience requirements. They aren't because they perceive a benefit to holding an information advantage over applicants. If this information advantage wasn't widely sought by firms, then there would be no advantage to interviewing several times a month. So really, any given firm could avoid their time being wasted by the gp. But presumably they would rather have their time wasted than to give up their information advantage, so it doesn't really make sense to lay all the responsibility for wasting people's time at the feet of the gp. Most candidates just accept the information disadvantage. The gp doesn't, but that's merely a rational response to the incentives put forth by the job market.
    - geebee 12y ago
      This is an aside, but I think there's a strong case to be made for publishing salaries, with names. I know it's an intimidating step, but this information is easily found on line for public service workers. The sky hasn't fallen, and there are a number of real benefits. One possible angle - perhaps openly publishing payroll info (name, title, pay) should be a requirement for all companies that receive an H1B or other work visa. Keep in mind, there is precedent. Information about how much a house sold for is public. Imagine if, when you were selling your house, you only had a bit of information gleaned from conversations with neighbors here and there, whereas the buyer had a massive database at his or her disposal with exact prices for every house sold in your neighborhood in the last 50 years. You'd be at a massive disadvantage. That's the situation employees are in.
      - hga 12y ago
joesmo 12y ago
How is rejecting a bad offer trolling? Please explain.
Retric 12y ago
I make it vary clear that an open office plan bump by salary requirements by 20k/year. It's not really trolling IMO.

geebee 12y ago

Agreed, though I actually think that this happens earlier in the decision tree. A lot of people with the talent to be top software developers never enter the field in the first place, as part of a rational market response to pay, career prospects, and working conditions (keep in mind, we're talking about an academically talented and hard working group of people here). I don't think it's open offices per se (though they aren't exactly improving the appeal of software dev jobs), so much as the employment conditions that lead to imposing open offices on a class of worker that so clearly benefits from a quiet, focused environment.

poikniok 12y ago
Out of curiosity, what exactly are the other fields that top people would enter? Are you thinking of finance, law, or medicine, or something else?
- geebee 12y ago
  All of the above and more. I do want to be sure I don't come off as claiming that there's no good reason to be a developer, I just don't think that the claims that there is a puzzling shortage of developers hold up when you consider the other options available. If it's hard to hire software developers, that's because the people talented enough to do the job are engaged in a rational, market based decision to do something else instead. One good place to start is here: http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/rankings/the-100-best-jobs http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/rankings/the-100-b... And compare salaries in high cost regions, rather than comparing national salaries. For instance, a dental hygienist in San Francisco earns, at the median, $112,970, a registered nurse in SF earns $127,670, and a Software Developer in San Francisco earns $114,400. So a software developer in SF, ground zero for the worker shortage, earns a bit more than a dental hygienist, and considerably less than a registered nurse. The median Lawyer in SF (not necessarily a good job, I'll admit) is quite a bit higher, and of course Physicians earn far more. I think that if you look through the data, it's pretty clear that software developers are paid decent but not remarkable salaries. And I'm not complaining about good salaries for nurses and dental hygienists, that's absolutely great by me. I just think we need to stop acting like there's some great mystery behind why people with choice (i.e., whose career options aren't limited by where and how they can get a work visa to the US) aren't going into software development.

discardorama 12y ago

I remember being invited to Facebook (their PA office, before they moved), and was horrified to see the row-upon-row of folding tables being used as desks, with barely enough elbow room. I lost my desire to work there right away. On the other hand, if I had joined then, ye olde bank balance would have been much fatter. ;-)

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]