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You're completely missing the point. The message I'm responding to says: "So why shouldn't Americans take a little credit for Brin's success?" I'm not saying

You're completely missing the point. The message I'm responding to says: "So why shouldn't Americans take a little credit for Brin's success?" I'm not saying that living in America had nothing to do with it, it obviously did. I'm saying that the overwhelming majority of Americans had nothing to do with it, ergo being proud to be American is, in general, about as warranted as being proud that your favorite team won a tournament. If you're a founding father, fought in the revolutionary war, influenced legislation in a historically significant ways, or did something of the sort, you may have a claim to be "proud", otherwise, you're a spectator, just like most people.

tptacek 12y ago
I'm not sure I can get my head around a debt owed to America the country that is not implicitly therefore owed to the American people. Teachers taught at schools that produced the professionals that built Google. Engineers designed the roads that workers built. I could just go on and on listing this stuff. Google benefited from an infrastructure built by all Americans. I think there's an element of the narrative fallacy implicated in the idea that the historical figures have a cause to be proud of American achievements, but ordinary people don't. Ordinary people are instrumental in everything achieved by those historical figures. The contributions of historical figures are immediately available to our consideration, because our stories revolve around them. Availability is usually a pernicious bias rather than a helpful signal. later: it's also worth considering whether the fallacy might be in our concept of "pride", and who "deserves" "pride". There are practical reasons to attribute American successes to America; it reinforces them, motivates us to continue doing what works. There are fewer practical reasons to accord accolades to historical figures.
- murbard2 12y ago
  This is severely misguided. If you're Tim Berners Lee, then yes, Google success could be a source of pride, because you enabled the success of this company by inventing the web. If you were one of Larry Page's professor, then maybe you can take some pride in the accomplishments of your student. If you're Sergey Brin's mom, you can be proud of how successful the son you raised has become. But that pride has nothing to do with being "British" "American" or "Russian". It has to do with your personal contribution to Google's success. At the end of the day, either you've had a measurable contribution to something of value, and you can be proud of that, or you didn't, and you don't get to be proud just because people who have a similar passport to yours have.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    You insist on using the word "pride", which Rayiner didn't. If you'd like, I'll stipulate that ordinary Americans shouldn't feel "proud" of Google, so that we can move back to the actual discussion of whether Americans should "take a little credit for" Google.
    - murbard2 12y ago
      The discussion was started by Tepix which referred to pride. And no, merely being American does not give you credit for Google. For most people, it's very hard to know if they've made the environment better or worse for Google.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- mercurial 12y ago
  Once thing is sure, you can't have it one way only: derive pride from what your countrymen do, while deftly avoiding any blame.

tptacek 12y ago

I'm not sure I can get my head around a debt owed to America the country that is not implicitly therefore owed to the American people. Teachers taught at schools that produced the professionals that built Google. Engineers designed the roads that workers built. I could just go on and on listing this stuff. Google benefited from an infrastructure built by all Americans. I think there's an element of the narrative fallacy implicated in the idea that the historical figures have a cause to be proud of American achievements, but ordinary people don't. Ordinary people are instrumental in everything achieved by those historical figures. The contributions of historical figures are immediately available to our consideration, because our stories revolve around them. Availability is usually a pernicious bias rather than a helpful signal. later: it's also worth considering whether the fallacy might be in our concept of "pride", and who "deserves" "pride". There are practical reasons to attribute American successes to America; it reinforces them, motivates us to continue doing what works. There are fewer practical reasons to accord accolades to historical figures.

murbard2 12y ago
This is severely misguided. If you're Tim Berners Lee, then yes, Google success could be a source of pride, because you enabled the success of this company by inventing the web. If you were one of Larry Page's professor, then maybe you can take some pride in the accomplishments of your student. If you're Sergey Brin's mom, you can be proud of how successful the son you raised has become. But that pride has nothing to do with being "British" "American" or "Russian". It has to do with your personal contribution to Google's success. At the end of the day, either you've had a measurable contribution to something of value, and you can be proud of that, or you didn't, and you don't get to be proud just because people who have a similar passport to yours have.
- tptacek 12y ago
  You insist on using the word "pride", which Rayiner didn't. If you'd like, I'll stipulate that ordinary Americans shouldn't feel "proud" of Google, so that we can move back to the actual discussion of whether Americans should "take a little credit for" Google.
  - murbard2 12y ago
    The discussion was started by Tepix which referred to pride. And no, merely being American does not give you credit for Google. For most people, it's very hard to know if they've made the environment better or worse for Google.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
mercurial 12y ago
Once thing is sure, you can't have it one way only: derive pride from what your countrymen do, while deftly avoiding any blame.