4 ms·

So personal ambition is an evil to the community and must be suppressed, then? Sure, that's a strawman summary, but speaking /as/ the son of a countryside peas

So personal ambition is an evil to the community and must be suppressed, then? Sure, that's a strawman summary, but speaking /as/ the son of a countryside peasant that not only left for the big city but the country entirely for greener fields in America, I cannot at all support the view that youthful ambition is harmful, regardless of its effects on small communities. Seeking a better life than your parents had - and seeking to make your children's life better than what you've had - is far from repugnant or malicious. The romanticized notion of a warm, inclusive small-town culture ignores the many cultural and economic ills isolated communities produce alongside Mom's "famous" apple pie. Even if we change the cultural incentive, it won't change the fact that these communities tend to /stay/ poor, and simply lack the resources internally to change that. Perhaps the answer isn't to shake an angry cane at the relentless changes wreaked upon small communities, but figure out a way to increase the incentive to invest back into the Heartland. Say, encourage geographically localized startups...

mechanical_fish 17y ago
From Stewart Brand's "Cities & Time" lecture: http://longnow.org/seminars/02005/apr/08/cities-and-time/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02005/apr/08/cities-and-time/ Vast new urban communities is the main event in the world for the present and coming decades. The villages and countrysides of the entire world are emptying out. Why? I was told by Kavita Ramdas, head of the Global Fund for Women, “In the village, all there is for a woman is to obey her husband and family elder, pound grain, and sing. If she moves to town, she can get a job, start a business, and get education for her children. Her independence goes up, and her religious fundamentalism goes down.” So much for the romanticism of villages. In reality, life in the country is dull, backbreaking, impoverished, restricted, exposed, and dangerous. Life in the city is exciting, less grueling, better paid, free, private, and safe. Brand's lecture, in some versions, includes a photomontage of deserted country towns from all over the world. In every country, in every culture, rural residents are leaving for the city. Unless people need a lot of land to grow the food they need to survive, they have no incentive to stay on the land.
- eru 17y ago
  > In every country, in every culture, rural residents are leaving for the city. I don't know if it's as universal as you say. Some highly developed countries, like Switzerland, seem quite stable in this regard.
  - pchristensen 17y ago
    Stable at extremely high levels of urbanization. They've already made their move to cities.
    - eru 17y ago
      Yes.
      - eru 17y ago
        I dug around. I found http://ww2.unhabitat.org/habrdd/conditions/westeurope/switze.htm http://ww2.unhabitat.org/habrdd/conditions/westeurope/switze... Seems like Switzerland has an urbanization level of 65% of the population. Does this count as extremely high? And it's not stable. Its projected to reach 72% by 2025.
        pchristensen 17y ago
        60-80% is typical for industrialized countries. I'd be interested to know if the increase is projected because of shrinkages of rural/small towns or growth in urban population from births, immigration, etc.
        eru 17y ago
        See the link. The statistics are there.
petercooper 17y ago
I'm on your side, but to answer your first question.. yes, that's how it runs in many communities. In some English countries it's called the tall-poppy syndrome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome - in Scandanavian it's the Jante Law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jante_Law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jante_Law The US has a much stronger recent history of personal ambition and "go-getting" - which is why European incomes tend to have a smaller gamut and the US has a big gulf between rich and poor. Good thing or not? I think the US has it right, to be honest, but there can certainly be cultural expectations not to get "too big for your boots."
- JCThoughtscream 17y ago
  I believe Pratchett calls it "the Crab Bucket" in his latest book. Even amongst European cultures, or any small-community culture anywhere, the ones that actually sit down and think about what it all actually amounts to quickly start feeling a bit of wanderlust, I suspect...

mechanical_fish 17y ago

From Stewart Brand's "Cities & Time" lecture: http://longnow.org/seminars/02005/apr/08/cities-and-time/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02005/apr/08/cities-and-time/ Vast new urban communities is the main event in the world for the present and coming decades. The villages and countrysides of the entire world are emptying out. Why? I was told by Kavita Ramdas, head of the Global Fund for Women, “In the village, all there is for a woman is to obey her husband and family elder, pound grain, and sing. If she moves to town, she can get a job, start a business, and get education for her children. Her independence goes up, and her religious fundamentalism goes down.” So much for the romanticism of villages. In reality, life in the country is dull, backbreaking, impoverished, restricted, exposed, and dangerous. Life in the city is exciting, less grueling, better paid, free, private, and safe. Brand's lecture, in some versions, includes a photomontage of deserted country towns from all over the world. In every country, in every culture, rural residents are leaving for the city. Unless people need a lot of land to grow the food they need to survive, they have no incentive to stay on the land.

eru 17y ago
> In every country, in every culture, rural residents are leaving for the city. I don't know if it's as universal as you say. Some highly developed countries, like Switzerland, seem quite stable in this regard.
- pchristensen 17y ago
  Stable at extremely high levels of urbanization. They've already made their move to cities.
  - eru 17y ago
    Yes.
    - eru 17y ago
      I dug around. I found http://ww2.unhabitat.org/habrdd/conditions/westeurope/switze.htm http://ww2.unhabitat.org/habrdd/conditions/westeurope/switze... Seems like Switzerland has an urbanization level of 65% of the population. Does this count as extremely high? And it's not stable. Its projected to reach 72% by 2025.
      - pchristensen 17y ago
        60-80% is typical for industrialized countries. I'd be interested to know if the increase is projected because of shrinkages of rural/small towns or growth in urban population from births, immigration, etc.
        eru 17y ago
        See the link. The statistics are there.

petercooper 17y ago

I'm on your side, but to answer your first question.. yes, that's how it runs in many communities. In some English countries it's called the tall-poppy syndrome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome - in Scandanavian it's the Jante Law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jante_Law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jante_Law The US has a much stronger recent history of personal ambition and "go-getting" - which is why European incomes tend to have a smaller gamut and the US has a big gulf between rich and poor. Good thing or not? I think the US has it right, to be honest, but there can certainly be cultural expectations not to get "too big for your boots."

JCThoughtscream 17y ago
I believe Pratchett calls it "the Crab Bucket" in his latest book. Even amongst European cultures, or any small-community culture anywhere, the ones that actually sit down and think about what it all actually amounts to quickly start feeling a bit of wanderlust, I suspect...