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There's a fork of Debian without systemd [1] [1] https://devuan.org/ https://devuan.org/

by bndr 12y ago

acjohnson55 12y ago
Why is this downvoted? Knowing very little about the debate, just seeing this comment grayed out doesn't help inform me. If the comment is not helpful, I wish someone would reply with information to explain why that's so. Is Devuan a bad project for some reason? Is this spam? Or is someone just dismissive of the need for an alternative?
- Surio 12y ago
  This whole init vs systemd has been a very divisive (and ongoing) debate, and both sides feel very strongly on their particular stance. Just look up the pages that come up for a "init vs systemd" search on the net. From what I see on the devuan page, in the spirit of FOSS, the people that prefer to keep init as part of their setup, have forked debian into devuan, and propose to retain the "init based debian", for people that prefer init scripts. That's the shortest summary I could come up with for you. Another short writeup by @tinco https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9094142 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9094142
- ReidZB 12y ago
  It looks like their domain/project name has changed, but this was discussed on Hacker News recently; the project got a fair bit of flak: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8477659 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8477659 Maybe the downvoter(s) were some of the same folks who raised their concerns in the above thread? Or maybe it's just the typical systemd holy war going on. I'd guess the former though.
- qznc 12y ago
  Many people consider it an overreaction to fork Debian for its choice of some defaults. Instead of creating this website and community, they could help Debian support its non-defaults. It's the same work anyways.
  - falcolas 12y ago
    I believe the problem here is that systemd can be introduced to a "non default" Debian system via package requirements, whereas they hope to prevent that in Devuan.
    - leni536 12y ago
      You can avoid installing systemd with apt-pinning it to negative priority if you really want to.
      - falcolas 12y ago
        Which won't allow you to install certain core pieces of Debian software which have decided to rely on systemd. If I understand Devuian correctly, they will port releases of core software off of systemd and back to init, giving you the option of still using core software packages without systemd. > Devuan will derive its own installer and package repositories from Debian, modifying them where necessary, with the first goal of removing systemd
        EmanueleAina 12y ago
        > Which won't allow you to install certain core pieces of Debian software which have decided to rely on systemd. Debian is committed to support sysvinit for the next release at least. I really doubt anyone in Debian will add dependencies on systemd "just because": if they do so they may have compelling reasons (eg. ConsoleKit is unmaintained and broken) and the correct reaction would be to fix the issue (eg. like the ConsoleKit2 people are trying to do) rather than forking Debian just to ignore the issue. Not that forking Debian is bad and people should not do it for whatever irrational reason if they want: it's just that in this case there's no rational reason the same task couldn't have been carried over in Debian itself other than the fact that in your own fork you may accept lower quality contributions more easily.
- belorn 12y ago
  Never heard about it before, but I would warn greatly against any one actually using Devuan in a production setting. If, down the line, Devuan can consistently maintain the work of pulling security updates from debian fast enough, or have their own security team doing the work, then and only then would I ever dare to use a different distro. Exception would be live-cd's, which tend to live in their own universe.
xroche 12y ago
A "fork", without any visible activity for months.
- hga 12y ago
  Demonstrably not true, e.g.: http://lists.devuan.org/dwn/1424284246.7620_1.fork:2,S.html http://lists.devuan.org/dwn/1424284246.7620_1.fork:2,S.html https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/dak https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/dak (last commit 8 hours ago as I type this). https://git.devuan.org/packages-base/dbus https://git.devuan.org/packages-base/dbus
- vezzy-fnord 12y ago
  They have an entire logind replacement called LoginKit (which uses ConsoleKit2 as a backend), so that's hardly "no visible activity".

There's a fork of Debian without systemd [1] [1] https://devuan.org/ https://devuan.org/

by bndr 12y ago

There's a fork of Debian without systemd [1] [1] https://devuan.org/ https://devuan.org/

Why is this downvoted? Knowing very little about the debate, just seeing this comment grayed out doesn't help inform me. If the comment is not helpful, I wish someone would reply with information to explain why that's so. Is Devuan a bad project for some reason? Is this spam? Or is someone just dismissive of the need for an alternative?

Surio 12y ago
This whole init vs systemd has been a very divisive (and ongoing) debate, and both sides feel very strongly on their particular stance. Just look up the pages that come up for a "init vs systemd" search on the net. From what I see on the devuan page, in the spirit of FOSS, the people that prefer to keep init as part of their setup, have forked debian into devuan, and propose to retain the "init based debian", for people that prefer init scripts. That's the shortest summary I could come up with for you. Another short writeup by @tinco https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9094142 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9094142
ReidZB 12y ago
It looks like their domain/project name has changed, but this was discussed on Hacker News recently; the project got a fair bit of flak: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8477659 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8477659 Maybe the downvoter(s) were some of the same folks who raised their concerns in the above thread? Or maybe it's just the typical systemd holy war going on. I'd guess the former though.
qznc 12y ago
Many people consider it an overreaction to fork Debian for its choice of some defaults. Instead of creating this website and community, they could help Debian support its non-defaults. It's the same work anyways.
- falcolas 12y ago
  I believe the problem here is that systemd can be introduced to a "non default" Debian system via package requirements, whereas they hope to prevent that in Devuan.
  - leni536 12y ago
    You can avoid installing systemd with apt-pinning it to negative priority if you really want to.
    - falcolas 12y ago
      Which won't allow you to install certain core pieces of Debian software which have decided to rely on systemd. If I understand Devuian correctly, they will port releases of core software off of systemd and back to init, giving you the option of still using core software packages without systemd. > Devuan will derive its own installer and package repositories from Debian, modifying them where necessary, with the first goal of removing systemd
      - EmanueleAina 12y ago
        > Which won't allow you to install certain core pieces of Debian software which have decided to rely on systemd. Debian is committed to support sysvinit for the next release at least. I really doubt anyone in Debian will add dependencies on systemd "just because": if they do so they may have compelling reasons (eg. ConsoleKit is unmaintained and broken) and the correct reaction would be to fix the issue (eg. like the ConsoleKit2 people are trying to do) rather than forking Debian just to ignore the issue. Not that forking Debian is bad and people should not do it for whatever irrational reason if they want: it's just that in this case there's no rational reason the same task couldn't have been carried over in Debian itself other than the fact that in your own fork you may accept lower quality contributions more easily.
belorn 12y ago
Never heard about it before, but I would warn greatly against any one actually using Devuan in a production setting. If, down the line, Devuan can consistently maintain the work of pulling security updates from debian fast enough, or have their own security team doing the work, then and only then would I ever dare to use a different distro. Exception would be live-cd's, which tend to live in their own universe.

xroche 12y ago

A "fork", without any visible activity for months.

hga 12y ago
Demonstrably not true, e.g.: http://lists.devuan.org/dwn/1424284246.7620_1.fork:2,S.html http://lists.devuan.org/dwn/1424284246.7620_1.fork:2,S.html https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/dak https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/dak (last commit 8 hours ago as I type this). https://git.devuan.org/packages-base/dbus https://git.devuan.org/packages-base/dbus
vezzy-fnord 12y ago
They have an entire logind replacement called LoginKit (which uses ConsoleKit2 as a backend), so that's hardly "no visible activity".