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> It's not always a choice; where I worked, as architects we sometimes had to put on our hero-capes and wade into code to save the day. I think its a matter of

> It's not always a choice; where I worked, as architects we sometimes had to put on our hero-capes and wade into code to save the day. I think its a matter of context, and one "architect" from one organisation to another will differ greatly. I've never seen a good "hands-off" architect in my experience. They've normally been the failed developers, or the ones that have been able to network to such an extent they get to a hands-off role. But, that's in context. Dilbertian almost.

crdoconnor 12y ago
>I've never seen a good "hands-off" architect in my experience. Because when it's done right, coding is 80% "architecting" stuff. If there is more than a tiny amount of menial work involved in programming then you are generally doing something very wrong. I think architect is one of the worst metaphors to ever grace the software engineering profession, by giving this impression that a programmer who can work "hands off" is even possible.
- harkyns_castle 12y ago
  Couldn't have said it better myself, a really well said point or series of points.
- arethuza 12y ago
  Or, even worse, "designing" everything in UML diagrams and then throwing it over a wall to "just be coded up" and then running away. Edit: Just to be clear - it's the "just coding" attitude and particularly the avoidance of actually mucking in and getting stuff to work that is the real problem with this approach. Mind you - I do hate UML, but that is personal!
  - crdoconnor 12y ago
    Fuck UML and fuck everybody who writes UML. Seriously. Those people are a cancer upon this profession. Code or GTFO.
- eludwig 12y ago
  >>Because when it's done right, coding is 80% "architecting" stuff. If there is more than a tiny amount of menial work involved in programming then you are generally doing something very wrong. I both agree and disagree with this, or it may be that the statement is vague (or that I just don't understand it). I have seen horrible "analysis paralysis" at most of the big financial institution where I have worked - especially the ones with a separate "architect" job. Hundreds of UML diagrams that were worse than none. For myself, I actually understand problems better by coding them. I can't always say exactly how something will work until I do it. Once I have general idea defined, I just start coding it! This is not to say that I sometimes don't put pencil to paper to help me think it through, but I would say I spend far, far more time coding than thinking. In fact, for me, coding is thinking. Yes, there is rewriting and throwing away and revising and tightening that inevitably happens. I work more like a writer, I suppose. This may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's how I work. There is a balance to these things and it's up to everyone to figure out where they fall.
  - crdoconnor 12y ago
    This sounds more or less exactly like what I wrote. What part did you disagree with?
    - eludwig 12y ago
      I may have read it wrong. I would have said: "Because when it's done right, 80% of "architecting" stuff is coding." If that is spirit of what you are saying, then I got it backwards! (apologies) Edit: I think I see the problem. There is an "of" missing. "Because when it's done right, coding is 80% OF "architecting" stuff."
  - zipfle 12y ago
    The UML thing made me think of this: http://thecodelesscode.com/case/137 http://thecodelesscode.com/case/137
- JustSomeNobody 12y ago
  The problem is people want to feel special. It's not enough to say you're a Computer Programmer. Instead you have to be a Software Engineer. And once that bores you, you start calling yourself an Architect. I have an actual engineering degree. Call me what you want to call me, but at the end of the day, I'm a computer programmer. And darn proud to be one.

crdoconnor 12y ago

>I've never seen a good "hands-off" architect in my experience. Because when it's done right, coding is 80% "architecting" stuff. If there is more than a tiny amount of menial work involved in programming then you are generally doing something very wrong. I think architect is one of the worst metaphors to ever grace the software engineering profession, by giving this impression that a programmer who can work "hands off" is even possible.

harkyns_castle 12y ago
Couldn't have said it better myself, a really well said point or series of points.
arethuza 12y ago
Or, even worse, "designing" everything in UML diagrams and then throwing it over a wall to "just be coded up" and then running away. Edit: Just to be clear - it's the "just coding" attitude and particularly the avoidance of actually mucking in and getting stuff to work that is the real problem with this approach. Mind you - I do hate UML, but that is personal!
- crdoconnor 12y ago
  Fuck UML and fuck everybody who writes UML. Seriously. Those people are a cancer upon this profession. Code or GTFO.
eludwig 12y ago
>>Because when it's done right, coding is 80% "architecting" stuff. If there is more than a tiny amount of menial work involved in programming then you are generally doing something very wrong. I both agree and disagree with this, or it may be that the statement is vague (or that I just don't understand it). I have seen horrible "analysis paralysis" at most of the big financial institution where I have worked - especially the ones with a separate "architect" job. Hundreds of UML diagrams that were worse than none. For myself, I actually understand problems better by coding them. I can't always say exactly how something will work until I do it. Once I have general idea defined, I just start coding it! This is not to say that I sometimes don't put pencil to paper to help me think it through, but I would say I spend far, far more time coding than thinking. In fact, for me, coding is thinking. Yes, there is rewriting and throwing away and revising and tightening that inevitably happens. I work more like a writer, I suppose. This may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's how I work. There is a balance to these things and it's up to everyone to figure out where they fall.
- crdoconnor 12y ago
  This sounds more or less exactly like what I wrote. What part did you disagree with?
  - eludwig 12y ago
    I may have read it wrong. I would have said: "Because when it's done right, 80% of "architecting" stuff is coding." If that is spirit of what you are saying, then I got it backwards! (apologies) Edit: I think I see the problem. There is an "of" missing. "Because when it's done right, coding is 80% OF "architecting" stuff."
- zipfle 12y ago
  The UML thing made me think of this: http://thecodelesscode.com/case/137 http://thecodelesscode.com/case/137
JustSomeNobody 12y ago
The problem is people want to feel special. It's not enough to say you're a Computer Programmer. Instead you have to be a Software Engineer. And once that bores you, you start calling yourself an Architect. I have an actual engineering degree. Call me what you want to call me, but at the end of the day, I'm a computer programmer. And darn proud to be one.