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broodbucket 12y ago
This is pretty much the worst possible way to respond to an opinion you seemingly disagree with. Where is the misogyny you see? I, like many others, see where we work as equal opportunity environments and note that the same opinion is shared by those considered minorities. If you've been exposed to something different, that's fine and can be a relevant addition to a discussion that you're flat out refusing to have because you consider your views as objective.
- DiversityWorks 12y ago
  It was offensive and dismissive, so I responded in kind. Anyone who is so ignorant as to deny the rampant misogyny in tech -- in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary -- is not someone who is going to be swayed by any appeal to reason and so I'm not going to waste my time in vain.
  - reitanqild 12y ago
    Feel free to explain how it was offensive.
  - curun1r 12y ago
    And your simplistic, black and white, view of women's situation in the tech world is naive and lacks the nuance necessary to achieve any positive change. The comment you so rudely dismissed made an excellent point. Misogyny is a deep-rooted problem in our society, not just the tech world, and has been for quite some time. This is evidenced by the fact that some of the worst discrimination against women comes from other women. Dismissive name calling will only lead to complaining. Only through understanding will we achieve progress. We need to examine why we're creating work environments that benefit aggressive personalities. In my job as an engineering manager, I've had to coach two male engineers to be more influential across the organization. This journey has been hard for them since they're the quintessential type-B personalities that are most happy simply getting their work done. But it's been made abundantly clear to me that they cannot advance beyond the Staff level without becoming more vocal leaders. I know this journey well since I've had to force myself into the same unnatural tendencies. It frustrates me to hear stories like the one we're responding to. Women complaining about being shut out of discussions? I had the same thing happen and for quite some time and I had to constantly ask my manager why I wasn't included in certain meetings. Over time, I started getting invited to more. I've realized that getting my due promotions has required me to be somewhat of an asshole. I don't think my workplace, a large enterprise software company, is uncommon and that's a huge problem. Women complaining about being paid less for the same work? I've witnessed about 100 salary negotiations in my time as a manager and every female prospect has either undervalued herself or caved much too easily whereas most male prospects know their value and fight for it. I think we can all agree that the outcomes, when women are underpaid, overlooked and made to feel unwelcome, need to change. But the processes that lead to those outcomes are incredibly complex and oversimplifying them does an incredible disservice. These issues are incredibly nuanced and when people like you deny that, you prevent the discussions that might lead to the understanding that is our only hope of remedying the situation.
- kaitai 12y ago
  I can't argue that the post your are responding to is terribly substantive, but at the same time, guys who tell me, "No one looks at my chest at conferences!" just don't... inspire a lot of confidence in me. Perhaps you're saying that you are working to make your workplace an equal opportunity environment, in which case I congratulate you. Perhaps like my workplace, though, there are plenty of inequities, which I simply don't mention too often because I have work to do and I don't want to be seen as the troublemaker. Most of my male colleagues would testify that our workplace is an equal opportunity environment. This is easily demonstrably false if you line up salaries, office space, and academic credentials & publications (I'm at a university so it's relevant). I am indeed grateful to the (male) colleagues who look out for me and try to help me out. At the same time, they are often clueless and have no idea what my interactions with funders and administrators are really like. But complainers and depressing people are just less fun to hang out with, so I don't want to be one of them! Stay positive!
sliverstorm 12y ago
A+ rhetorical form, I'm completely sold.

Go away

This is pretty much the worst possible way to respond to an opinion you seemingly disagree with. Where is the misogyny you see? I, like many others, see where we work as equal opportunity environments and note that the same opinion is shared by those considered minorities. If you've been exposed to something different, that's fine and can be a relevant addition to a discussion that you're flat out refusing to have because you consider your views as objective.

DiversityWorks 12y ago
It was offensive and dismissive, so I responded in kind. Anyone who is so ignorant as to deny the rampant misogyny in tech -- in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary -- is not someone who is going to be swayed by any appeal to reason and so I'm not going to waste my time in vain.
- reitanqild 12y ago
  Feel free to explain how it was offensive.
- curun1r 12y ago
  And your simplistic, black and white, view of women's situation in the tech world is naive and lacks the nuance necessary to achieve any positive change. The comment you so rudely dismissed made an excellent point. Misogyny is a deep-rooted problem in our society, not just the tech world, and has been for quite some time. This is evidenced by the fact that some of the worst discrimination against women comes from other women. Dismissive name calling will only lead to complaining. Only through understanding will we achieve progress. We need to examine why we're creating work environments that benefit aggressive personalities. In my job as an engineering manager, I've had to coach two male engineers to be more influential across the organization. This journey has been hard for them since they're the quintessential type-B personalities that are most happy simply getting their work done. But it's been made abundantly clear to me that they cannot advance beyond the Staff level without becoming more vocal leaders. I know this journey well since I've had to force myself into the same unnatural tendencies. It frustrates me to hear stories like the one we're responding to. Women complaining about being shut out of discussions? I had the same thing happen and for quite some time and I had to constantly ask my manager why I wasn't included in certain meetings. Over time, I started getting invited to more. I've realized that getting my due promotions has required me to be somewhat of an asshole. I don't think my workplace, a large enterprise software company, is uncommon and that's a huge problem. Women complaining about being paid less for the same work? I've witnessed about 100 salary negotiations in my time as a manager and every female prospect has either undervalued herself or caved much too easily whereas most male prospects know their value and fight for it. I think we can all agree that the outcomes, when women are underpaid, overlooked and made to feel unwelcome, need to change. But the processes that lead to those outcomes are incredibly complex and oversimplifying them does an incredible disservice. These issues are incredibly nuanced and when people like you deny that, you prevent the discussions that might lead to the understanding that is our only hope of remedying the situation.
kaitai 12y ago
I can't argue that the post your are responding to is terribly substantive, but at the same time, guys who tell me, "No one looks at my chest at conferences!" just don't... inspire a lot of confidence in me. Perhaps you're saying that you are working to make your workplace an equal opportunity environment, in which case I congratulate you. Perhaps like my workplace, though, there are plenty of inequities, which I simply don't mention too often because I have work to do and I don't want to be seen as the troublemaker. Most of my male colleagues would testify that our workplace is an equal opportunity environment. This is easily demonstrably false if you line up salaries, office space, and academic credentials & publications (I'm at a university so it's relevant). I am indeed grateful to the (male) colleagues who look out for me and try to help me out. At the same time, they are often clueless and have no idea what my interactions with funders and administrators are really like. But complainers and depressing people are just less fun to hang out with, so I don't want to be one of them! Stay positive!

sliverstorm 12y ago

A+ rhetorical form, I'm completely sold.