5 ms·

Misogyny in tech, example #547,423,842,763. Yet on cue the hard done-by privileged white males are coming out of the woodwork to whine.

toolz 12y ago
I don't think anyone is arguing there isn't misogyny in tech. There is misogyny almost everywhere. It's been a part of our culture for a very long time and it will take time and continued efforts to solve the problem, but trying to determine which problems are the most obvious is part of the solution and does nothing to undermine the fact that there is a problem. This doesn't appear to highlight the problem. I'm open to discussion, but this article does nothing to provoke discussion it only highlights its conclusion and does little to support the conclusion it came to.
- DiversityWorks 12y ago
  Go away
  - broodbucket 12y ago
    This is pretty much the worst possible way to respond to an opinion you seemingly disagree with. Where is the misogyny you see? I, like many others, see where we work as equal opportunity environments and note that the same opinion is shared by those considered minorities. If you've been exposed to something different, that's fine and can be a relevant addition to a discussion that you're flat out refusing to have because you consider your views as objective.
    - DiversityWorks 12y ago
      It was offensive and dismissive, so I responded in kind. Anyone who is so ignorant as to deny the rampant misogyny in tech -- in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary -- is not someone who is going to be swayed by any appeal to reason and so I'm not going to waste my time in vain.
      - reitanqild 12y ago
        Feel free to explain how it was offensive.
      - curun1r 12y ago
        And your simplistic, black and white, view of women's situation in the tech world is naive and lacks the nuance necessary to achieve any positive change. The comment you so rudely dismissed made an excellent point. Misogyny is a deep-rooted problem in our society, not just the tech world, and has been for quite some time. This is evidenced by the fact that some of the worst discrimination against women comes from other women. Dismissive name calling will only lead to complaining. Only through understanding will we achieve progress. We need to examine why we're creating work environments that benefit aggressive personalities. In my job as an engineering manager, I've had to coach two male engineers to be more influential across the organization. This journey has been hard for them since they're the quintessential type-B personalities that are most happy simply getting their work done. But it's been made abundantly clear to me that they cannot advance beyond the Staff level without becoming more vocal leaders. I know this journey well since I've had to force myself into the same unnatural tendencies. It frustrates me to hear stories like the one we're responding to. Women complaining about being shut out of discussions? I had the same thing happen and for quite some time and I had to constantly ask my manager why I wasn't included in certain meetings. Over time, I started getting invited to more. I've realized that getting my due promotions has required me to be somewhat of an asshole. I don't think my workplace, a large enterprise software company, is uncommon and that's a huge problem. Women complaining about being paid less for the same work? I've witnessed about 100 salary negotiations in my time as a manager and every female prospect has either undervalued herself or caved much too easily whereas most male prospects know their value and fight for it. I think we can all agree that the outcomes, when women are underpaid, overlooked and made to feel unwelcome, need to change. But the processes that lead to those outcomes are incredibly complex and oversimplifying them does an incredible disservice. These issues are incredibly nuanced and when people like you deny that, you prevent the discussions that might lead to the understanding that is our only hope of remedying the situation.
    - kaitai 12y ago
      I can't argue that the post your are responding to is terribly substantive, but at the same time, guys who tell me, "No one looks at my chest at conferences!" just don't... inspire a lot of confidence in me. Perhaps you're saying that you are working to make your workplace an equal opportunity environment, in which case I congratulate you. Perhaps like my workplace, though, there are plenty of inequities, which I simply don't mention too often because I have work to do and I don't want to be seen as the troublemaker. Most of my male colleagues would testify that our workplace is an equal opportunity environment. This is easily demonstrably false if you line up salaries, office space, and academic credentials & publications (I'm at a university so it's relevant). I am indeed grateful to the (male) colleagues who look out for me and try to help me out. At the same time, they are often clueless and have no idea what my interactions with funders and administrators are really like. But complainers and depressing people are just less fun to hang out with, so I don't want to be one of them! Stay positive!
  - sliverstorm 12y ago
    A+ rhetorical form, I'm completely sold.
- threeseed 12y ago
  Did you read the article ? It clearly highlighted the problem. According to the Harvard study, they include a "hostile" male culture, a sense of isolation and lack of a clear career path. Examples include: Redmond, now 40, didn't want to leave her tech career. But she felt stuck, with no way to advance ; Chou, "The continuous pattern of all these people treating me like I didn't know what was going on, or excluding me from conversations and not trusting my assertions, all these things added up and it felt like there was an undercurrent of sexism" Frankly this dismissive "misogyny is everywhere" attitude is pretty unhelpful. It isn't everywhere and even if it were it implies that it is somehow endemic to our culture which it isn't. Many industries actively support and encourage women especially in senior management positions.
  - reitanqild 12y ago
    > "The continuous pattern of all these people treating me like I didn't know what was going on, or excluding me from conversations and not trusting my assertions, all these things added up and it felt like there was an undercurrent of sexism" Well, this happens to men as well. I'm a male engineer and not being asked, not being trusted is just how it works at my current job. YMMV The reason why we are seeing negative reactions here might be that some people are seriously tired of everything being sexism.[1] [1]: e.g. "Donglegate" Adria Richards, who cost two people their jobs because she 1.) most likely misunderstood a joke that was not meant for her 2.) misused female privilege (yes, they exist as well)
  - codeddesign 12y ago
    I'm sure he won't disagree with the fact that some environments are hostile. The issue arises around the fluff piece with your example: "Redmond, now 40, didn't want to leave her tech career. But she felt stuck..." Tell me 1 person in america that doesn't or hasn't felt this way in a career or a job. The real issue is...if those were men, we would not be having this conversation and you would be saying "suck it up".
- wh-uws 12y ago
  I am. I am explicitly arguing that not only that there is little to no misogyny it tech but even further, that the tech industry goes above and beyond to no be any of your favorite "- ists"
  - DiversityWorks 12y ago
    And you're therefore part of the problem. Congratulations.
    - MagaManGo 12y ago
      You are a solider looking for an enemy. Congratulations.
  - toolz 12y ago
    Fair enough, I apologize for speaking for everyone. Have you never heard a sexist joke at work? That's misogyny in the tech industry. I'm not suggesting it's endemic to tech. I'm merely recognizing that we're not that far removed from a time where women couldn't vote and we still have laws on books that allow men to beat women as punishment in first world countries. Tech has nothing to do with the disease. We're merely a more observant industry, so we tend to notice things like this before other industries and thus it somehow becomes a problem vs industry instead of just recognizing it as a problem. Tech isn't the only industry that is male dominated and I certainly wouldn't say that being male dominated necessitates sexism.
    - sliverstorm 12y ago
      Have you never heard a sexist joke at work? That's misogyny in the tech industry. Hold on. When my female friends make funny sexist jokes, is that misandry? Sexist jokes are sexist, but I don't think sexist == misoginist/misandrist. EDIT: To be clear, I mean when those women make sexist jokes about men. As in, sexism about/directed at men.
      - toolz 12y ago
sre_ops 12y ago
It would be a cute statement we could get behind had it not been that we spent about 20 years of doing 14-20 hour days because it was expected of us before we got into the management. So now we kind of look at those that did not put in the time the same way we look at those that show up with their ITT Tech diplomas.
xacaxulu 12y ago
Looks like Shanley has respawned as DiversityWorks.

toolz 12y ago

I don't think anyone is arguing there isn't misogyny in tech. There is misogyny almost everywhere. It's been a part of our culture for a very long time and it will take time and continued efforts to solve the problem, but trying to determine which problems are the most obvious is part of the solution and does nothing to undermine the fact that there is a problem. This doesn't appear to highlight the problem. I'm open to discussion, but this article does nothing to provoke discussion it only highlights its conclusion and does little to support the conclusion it came to.

DiversityWorks 12y ago
Go away
- broodbucket 12y ago
  This is pretty much the worst possible way to respond to an opinion you seemingly disagree with. Where is the misogyny you see? I, like many others, see where we work as equal opportunity environments and note that the same opinion is shared by those considered minorities. If you've been exposed to something different, that's fine and can be a relevant addition to a discussion that you're flat out refusing to have because you consider your views as objective.
  - DiversityWorks 12y ago
    It was offensive and dismissive, so I responded in kind. Anyone who is so ignorant as to deny the rampant misogyny in tech -- in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary -- is not someone who is going to be swayed by any appeal to reason and so I'm not going to waste my time in vain.
    - reitanqild 12y ago
      Feel free to explain how it was offensive.
    - curun1r 12y ago
      And your simplistic, black and white, view of women's situation in the tech world is naive and lacks the nuance necessary to achieve any positive change. The comment you so rudely dismissed made an excellent point. Misogyny is a deep-rooted problem in our society, not just the tech world, and has been for quite some time. This is evidenced by the fact that some of the worst discrimination against women comes from other women. Dismissive name calling will only lead to complaining. Only through understanding will we achieve progress. We need to examine why we're creating work environments that benefit aggressive personalities. In my job as an engineering manager, I've had to coach two male engineers to be more influential across the organization. This journey has been hard for them since they're the quintessential type-B personalities that are most happy simply getting their work done. But it's been made abundantly clear to me that they cannot advance beyond the Staff level without becoming more vocal leaders. I know this journey well since I've had to force myself into the same unnatural tendencies. It frustrates me to hear stories like the one we're responding to. Women complaining about being shut out of discussions? I had the same thing happen and for quite some time and I had to constantly ask my manager why I wasn't included in certain meetings. Over time, I started getting invited to more. I've realized that getting my due promotions has required me to be somewhat of an asshole. I don't think my workplace, a large enterprise software company, is uncommon and that's a huge problem. Women complaining about being paid less for the same work? I've witnessed about 100 salary negotiations in my time as a manager and every female prospect has either undervalued herself or caved much too easily whereas most male prospects know their value and fight for it. I think we can all agree that the outcomes, when women are underpaid, overlooked and made to feel unwelcome, need to change. But the processes that lead to those outcomes are incredibly complex and oversimplifying them does an incredible disservice. These issues are incredibly nuanced and when people like you deny that, you prevent the discussions that might lead to the understanding that is our only hope of remedying the situation.
  - kaitai 12y ago
    I can't argue that the post your are responding to is terribly substantive, but at the same time, guys who tell me, "No one looks at my chest at conferences!" just don't... inspire a lot of confidence in me. Perhaps you're saying that you are working to make your workplace an equal opportunity environment, in which case I congratulate you. Perhaps like my workplace, though, there are plenty of inequities, which I simply don't mention too often because I have work to do and I don't want to be seen as the troublemaker. Most of my male colleagues would testify that our workplace is an equal opportunity environment. This is easily demonstrably false if you line up salaries, office space, and academic credentials & publications (I'm at a university so it's relevant). I am indeed grateful to the (male) colleagues who look out for me and try to help me out. At the same time, they are often clueless and have no idea what my interactions with funders and administrators are really like. But complainers and depressing people are just less fun to hang out with, so I don't want to be one of them! Stay positive!
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  A+ rhetorical form, I'm completely sold.
threeseed 12y ago
Did you read the article ? It clearly highlighted the problem. According to the Harvard study, they include a "hostile" male culture, a sense of isolation and lack of a clear career path. Examples include: Redmond, now 40, didn't want to leave her tech career. But she felt stuck, with no way to advance ; Chou, "The continuous pattern of all these people treating me like I didn't know what was going on, or excluding me from conversations and not trusting my assertions, all these things added up and it felt like there was an undercurrent of sexism" Frankly this dismissive "misogyny is everywhere" attitude is pretty unhelpful. It isn't everywhere and even if it were it implies that it is somehow endemic to our culture which it isn't. Many industries actively support and encourage women especially in senior management positions.
- reitanqild 12y ago
  > "The continuous pattern of all these people treating me like I didn't know what was going on, or excluding me from conversations and not trusting my assertions, all these things added up and it felt like there was an undercurrent of sexism" Well, this happens to men as well. I'm a male engineer and not being asked, not being trusted is just how it works at my current job. YMMV The reason why we are seeing negative reactions here might be that some people are seriously tired of everything being sexism.[1] [1]: e.g. "Donglegate" Adria Richards, who cost two people their jobs because she 1.) most likely misunderstood a joke that was not meant for her 2.) misused female privilege (yes, they exist as well)
- codeddesign 12y ago
  I'm sure he won't disagree with the fact that some environments are hostile. The issue arises around the fluff piece with your example: "Redmond, now 40, didn't want to leave her tech career. But she felt stuck..." Tell me 1 person in america that doesn't or hasn't felt this way in a career or a job. The real issue is...if those were men, we would not be having this conversation and you would be saying "suck it up".
wh-uws 12y ago
I am. I am explicitly arguing that not only that there is little to no misogyny it tech but even further, that the tech industry goes above and beyond to no be any of your favorite "- ists"
- DiversityWorks 12y ago
  And you're therefore part of the problem. Congratulations.
  - MagaManGo 12y ago
    You are a solider looking for an enemy. Congratulations.
- toolz 12y ago
  Fair enough, I apologize for speaking for everyone. Have you never heard a sexist joke at work? That's misogyny in the tech industry. I'm not suggesting it's endemic to tech. I'm merely recognizing that we're not that far removed from a time where women couldn't vote and we still have laws on books that allow men to beat women as punishment in first world countries. Tech has nothing to do with the disease. We're merely a more observant industry, so we tend to notice things like this before other industries and thus it somehow becomes a problem vs industry instead of just recognizing it as a problem. Tech isn't the only industry that is male dominated and I certainly wouldn't say that being male dominated necessitates sexism.
  - sliverstorm 12y ago
    Have you never heard a sexist joke at work? That's misogyny in the tech industry. Hold on. When my female friends make funny sexist jokes, is that misandry? Sexist jokes are sexist, but I don't think sexist == misoginist/misandrist. EDIT: To be clear, I mean when those women make sexist jokes about men. As in, sexism about/directed at men.
    - toolz 12y ago

sre_ops 12y ago

It would be a cute statement we could get behind had it not been that we spent about 20 years of doing 14-20 hour days because it was expected of us before we got into the management. So now we kind of look at those that did not put in the time the same way we look at those that show up with their ITT Tech diplomas.

xacaxulu 12y ago

Looks like Shanley has respawned as DiversityWorks.