6 ms·

Women are leaving the tech industry in droves

62 points by cgoodmac 12y ago

polarix 12y ago
Fascinating. Note to potential commenters: the same article just had a discussion thread which was flagkilled. Don't invest any energy or thought in your comment, as it's likely at risk of removal again.
- jt2190 12y ago
  Flagkilled was here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9091810 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9091810
- delinka 12y ago
  I always thought it was the article that was flagkilled, not the discussion.
- dang 12y ago
  We usually unkill flagkilled submissions that have ongoing discussions, so the discussion can continue. We've done so there.
WaltPurvis 12y ago
The article begins by introducing Ana Redmond, who "launched into a technology career ... well-equipped to succeed ... In 2011, after 15 years, she left before achieving a management position." The article ends by telling us "Redmond now runs her own business making educational apps for children." I'm sorry, but how does founding a company that builds apps count as "leaving the tech industry"? I'm sure women face many subtle and not-so-subtle issues working in tech, because it is very much a boys' club, but I'm not so sure about the analytical merits of this article.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- ameister14 12y ago
  The other woman they were talking about is an engineer at Pinterest - she didn't leave the tech industry either.
- webehere 12y ago
  Problem exists that CAN affect women != women's problem. Problem that ONLY affects women == women's problem. Wish that distinction was made more often. That the 20% figure for women is so consistent (and a lie I might add, I doubt 10% represents DBAs, and I bet that the PR and HR departments have closer to 100% females) is surely SOMETHING. My girlfriend is a lawyer and she is quitting for much the same reasons - the long hours, the fact that to get promoted you need to get clients which you need to be part of the boy's club to do etc etc. The thing, is MANY of her male peers feel the same way. The biggest difference IMHO is that women have more guts than men and actually will leave. Most men ARE their jobs, so they stay DESPITE how terrible it is. Women, often with more rounded senses of self esteem, go "fuck this shit - I'm Audi". I'm not sure how that is a good thing for men OR women, and I'm not sure how to fix it. "Make women miserable" seems, to me at least, the worst outcome, but really, that's the only way to address the issue of ratios, without addressing the underlying issues.
- threeseed 12y ago
  Maybe it's just me but the article seemed pretty clear. Women reach a glass ceiling within the IT industry and decide to leave. Some, like Ana, are lucky enough to startup their own business. But this would be the minority. Most middle aged people have mortgages, families etc that they need to provide for. "Hostile" male culture, a sense of isolation and lack of a clear career path seem like a pretty sad indictment on our industry.
- CyberDildonics 12y ago
  Well it was written by a woman...
tzs 12y ago
Note for readers on mobile: if you see a dark overly and cannot find what to click to make it go away, try rotating your device. That sometimes will reveal the blocking ad that they are incompetently trying to display.
dmschulman 12y ago
The article leads with Ana Redmond and Garann Means but the featured photo is Tracy Chou? The author doesn't even mention Chou until the 19th paragraph!
- toolz 12y ago
  Because Chou is younger and more attractive than the other women mentioned. Ironic, huh?
DiversityWorks 12y ago
Misogyny in tech, example #547,423,842,763. Yet on cue the hard done-by privileged white males are coming out of the woodwork to whine.
- toolz 12y ago
  I don't think anyone is arguing there isn't misogyny in tech. There is misogyny almost everywhere. It's been a part of our culture for a very long time and it will take time and continued efforts to solve the problem, but trying to determine which problems are the most obvious is part of the solution and does nothing to undermine the fact that there is a problem. This doesn't appear to highlight the problem. I'm open to discussion, but this article does nothing to provoke discussion it only highlights its conclusion and does little to support the conclusion it came to.
  - DiversityWorks 12y ago
    Go away
    - broodbucket 12y ago
      This is pretty much the worst possible way to respond to an opinion you seemingly disagree with. Where is the misogyny you see? I, like many others, see where we work as equal opportunity environments and note that the same opinion is shared by those considered minorities. If you've been exposed to something different, that's fine and can be a relevant addition to a discussion that you're flat out refusing to have because you consider your views as objective.
      - DiversityWorks 12y ago
        It was offensive and dismissive, so I responded in kind. Anyone who is so ignorant as to deny the rampant misogyny in tech -- in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary -- is not someone who is going to be swayed by any appeal to reason and so I'm not going to waste my time in vain.
zenpaul 12y ago
The facts of article don't support the headline, since the numbers they reference are for total female percentages, not attrition numbers. Sounds to me that it's not that they're leaving, but they didn't get there in the first place. What got me was the last quote from Garann Means - "The main thing would be professionalism. Just being able to treat each other with respect would be huge." Those words echo exactly what my wife says almost daily, and she is a non-tech manager at a non-tech company.
- kevin_thibedeau 12y ago
  Barbie taught a generation that "math is hard". Journalists shouldn't be expected to investigate numbers beyond how well they sit with the text in their screed.
codeddesign 12y ago
I'm sorry, but I don't see the issue. I continue to see article after article about women not being in the tech space, but being in corp. tech for over 10 years - outside of larger conservative tech companies such as IBM, the issue isn't that women cannot obtain advancement but more so of the ratio of woman/men in the tech sector. Should I be upset that when I go for my checkup, that I see primarily Asian doctors? Are they getting greater advancement because they are Asian? Or it is the fact that 1 segment of the population has a larger number entering that space? "Her male bosses told her she'd built it without permission. Then they said only architects within the company could pitch features — and all the architects were male." ^^ As a white male, I had recently done this in my job and was told the same. Our protocol as that we are required to request permission prior to developing new features. This is not uncommon. "It's why the industry is so eager to hire women and minorities. For decades tech companies have relied on a workforce of whites and Asians, most of them men." facepalm Really? Where are the women who are crying out for equal rights? As a white male, I would assume companies would seek the best that they could find, rather than seek to locate a segment of the population that is less inclined to enter the tech space. This is just a poorly written article to draw in readers, and a few instances of people that had bad experiences in their own workplace rather than industry facts. We are have bad experiences in life and work, regardless of our sex, age, race, or religion. While I am not saying that it does not happen, I am saying that this is a "junk" piece created for readership that is pro woman man slapping.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  the issue isn't that women cannot obtain advancement but more so of the ratio of woman/men in the tech sector. I definitely feel this way when I contemplate the possibility of a glass ceiling at my office. There are no high level female execs. But on the other hand, there is only one recent female new hire (contrasted to 10-20 recent male new hires) Considering the natural funnel to upper management, it seems abundantly clear the lack-of-female-execs problem, wherever it may be, is not in our promotion system. Maybe it's in hiring. Maybe it's in school. But it doesn't seem to be in promotion.
renaudg 12y ago
His black pants wearing bosses told him he'd built it without permission. Then they said only architects within the company could pitch features — and all the architects were wearing black pants ! "Clearly this is not a coincidence. It has nothing to do with this company just being dysfunctional and unwelcoming of individual initiatives or anything, no : this has got to be discrimination against people wearing blue pants like myself ! This would definitely never happen to my colleagues who prefer black pants. I'm sure you can find other stories of blue pants-wearing people like myself who at least once didn't get that promotion, and make a nice article about it with a catchy headline. Go to work, journalist !" Gender discrimination in tech might exist, but it will take more than anecdotal stories like these thrown together to establish causation. Any white male developer with some big corp experience will have experienced the frustrating situation described above. This is the control group, and it says your "gender" variable in that particular experiment is BS. Some white males never get "that" promotion either, I'm sure you can find enough of them to make a nice article about it. They just don't have the opportunity of blaming it on their genitals nor do they have support groups dedicated to them. The constant use of fallacies and sensationalism by well-meaning (and less well-meaning) feminists is doing a disservice to taking these issues seriously where they do exist, IMHO.

62 points by cgoodmac 12y ago

Fascinating. Note to potential commenters: the same article just had a discussion thread which was flagkilled. Don't invest any energy or thought in your comment, as it's likely at risk of removal again.

jt2190 12y ago
Flagkilled was here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9091810 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9091810
delinka 12y ago
I always thought it was the article that was flagkilled, not the discussion.
dang 12y ago
We usually unkill flagkilled submissions that have ongoing discussions, so the discussion can continue. We've done so there.

WaltPurvis 12y ago

The article begins by introducing Ana Redmond, who "launched into a technology career ... well-equipped to succeed ... In 2011, after 15 years, she left before achieving a management position." The article ends by telling us "Redmond now runs her own business making educational apps for children." I'm sorry, but how does founding a company that builds apps count as "leaving the tech industry"? I'm sure women face many subtle and not-so-subtle issues working in tech, because it is very much a boys' club, but I'm not so sure about the analytical merits of this article.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
ameister14 12y ago
The other woman they were talking about is an engineer at Pinterest - she didn't leave the tech industry either.
webehere 12y ago
Problem exists that CAN affect women != women's problem. Problem that ONLY affects women == women's problem. Wish that distinction was made more often. That the 20% figure for women is so consistent (and a lie I might add, I doubt 10% represents DBAs, and I bet that the PR and HR departments have closer to 100% females) is surely SOMETHING. My girlfriend is a lawyer and she is quitting for much the same reasons - the long hours, the fact that to get promoted you need to get clients which you need to be part of the boy's club to do etc etc. The thing, is MANY of her male peers feel the same way. The biggest difference IMHO is that women have more guts than men and actually will leave. Most men ARE their jobs, so they stay DESPITE how terrible it is. Women, often with more rounded senses of self esteem, go "fuck this shit - I'm Audi". I'm not sure how that is a good thing for men OR women, and I'm not sure how to fix it. "Make women miserable" seems, to me at least, the worst outcome, but really, that's the only way to address the issue of ratios, without addressing the underlying issues.
threeseed 12y ago
Maybe it's just me but the article seemed pretty clear. Women reach a glass ceiling within the IT industry and decide to leave. Some, like Ana, are lucky enough to startup their own business. But this would be the minority. Most middle aged people have mortgages, families etc that they need to provide for. "Hostile" male culture, a sense of isolation and lack of a clear career path seem like a pretty sad indictment on our industry.
CyberDildonics 12y ago
Well it was written by a woman...

tzs 12y ago

Note for readers on mobile: if you see a dark overly and cannot find what to click to make it go away, try rotating your device. That sometimes will reveal the blocking ad that they are incompetently trying to display.

dmschulman 12y ago

The article leads with Ana Redmond and Garann Means but the featured photo is Tracy Chou? The author doesn't even mention Chou until the 19th paragraph!

toolz 12y ago
Because Chou is younger and more attractive than the other women mentioned. Ironic, huh?

DiversityWorks 12y ago

Misogyny in tech, example #547,423,842,763. Yet on cue the hard done-by privileged white males are coming out of the woodwork to whine.

toolz 12y ago
I don't think anyone is arguing there isn't misogyny in tech. There is misogyny almost everywhere. It's been a part of our culture for a very long time and it will take time and continued efforts to solve the problem, but trying to determine which problems are the most obvious is part of the solution and does nothing to undermine the fact that there is a problem. This doesn't appear to highlight the problem. I'm open to discussion, but this article does nothing to provoke discussion it only highlights its conclusion and does little to support the conclusion it came to.
- DiversityWorks 12y ago
  Go away
  - broodbucket 12y ago
    This is pretty much the worst possible way to respond to an opinion you seemingly disagree with. Where is the misogyny you see? I, like many others, see where we work as equal opportunity environments and note that the same opinion is shared by those considered minorities. If you've been exposed to something different, that's fine and can be a relevant addition to a discussion that you're flat out refusing to have because you consider your views as objective.
    - DiversityWorks 12y ago
      It was offensive and dismissive, so I responded in kind. Anyone who is so ignorant as to deny the rampant misogyny in tech -- in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary -- is not someone who is going to be swayed by any appeal to reason and so I'm not going to waste my time in vain.

zenpaul 12y ago

The facts of article don't support the headline, since the numbers they reference are for total female percentages, not attrition numbers. Sounds to me that it's not that they're leaving, but they didn't get there in the first place. What got me was the last quote from Garann Means - "The main thing would be professionalism. Just being able to treat each other with respect would be huge." Those words echo exactly what my wife says almost daily, and she is a non-tech manager at a non-tech company.

kevin_thibedeau 12y ago
Barbie taught a generation that "math is hard". Journalists shouldn't be expected to investigate numbers beyond how well they sit with the text in their screed.

codeddesign 12y ago

I'm sorry, but I don't see the issue. I continue to see article after article about women not being in the tech space, but being in corp. tech for over 10 years - outside of larger conservative tech companies such as IBM, the issue isn't that women cannot obtain advancement but more so of the ratio of woman/men in the tech sector. Should I be upset that when I go for my checkup, that I see primarily Asian doctors? Are they getting greater advancement because they are Asian? Or it is the fact that 1 segment of the population has a larger number entering that space? "Her male bosses told her she'd built it without permission. Then they said only architects within the company could pitch features — and all the architects were male." ^^ As a white male, I had recently done this in my job and was told the same. Our protocol as that we are required to request permission prior to developing new features. This is not uncommon. "It's why the industry is so eager to hire women and minorities. For decades tech companies have relied on a workforce of whites and Asians, most of them men." facepalm Really? Where are the women who are crying out for equal rights? As a white male, I would assume companies would seek the best that they could find, rather than seek to locate a segment of the population that is less inclined to enter the tech space. This is just a poorly written article to draw in readers, and a few instances of people that had bad experiences in their own workplace rather than industry facts. We are have bad experiences in life and work, regardless of our sex, age, race, or religion. While I am not saying that it does not happen, I am saying that this is a "junk" piece created for readership that is pro woman man slapping.

sliverstorm 12y ago
the issue isn't that women cannot obtain advancement but more so of the ratio of woman/men in the tech sector. I definitely feel this way when I contemplate the possibility of a glass ceiling at my office. There are no high level female execs. But on the other hand, there is only one recent female new hire (contrasted to 10-20 recent male new hires) Considering the natural funnel to upper management, it seems abundantly clear the lack-of-female-execs problem, wherever it may be, is not in our promotion system. Maybe it's in hiring. Maybe it's in school. But it doesn't seem to be in promotion.

renaudg 12y ago

His black pants wearing bosses told him he'd built it without permission. Then they said only architects within the company could pitch features — and all the architects were wearing black pants ! "Clearly this is not a coincidence. It has nothing to do with this company just being dysfunctional and unwelcoming of individual initiatives or anything, no : this has got to be discrimination against people wearing blue pants like myself ! This would definitely never happen to my colleagues who prefer black pants. I'm sure you can find other stories of blue pants-wearing people like myself who at least once didn't get that promotion, and make a nice article about it with a catchy headline. Go to work, journalist !" Gender discrimination in tech might exist, but it will take more than anecdotal stories like these thrown together to establish causation. Any white male developer with some big corp experience will have experienced the frustrating situation described above. This is the control group, and it says your "gender" variable in that particular experiment is BS. Some white males never get "that" promotion either, I'm sure you can find enough of them to make a nice article about it. They just don't have the opportunity of blaming it on their genitals nor do they have support groups dedicated to them. The constant use of fallacies and sensationalism by well-meaning (and less well-meaning) feminists is doing a disservice to taking these issues seriously where they do exist, IMHO.