3 ms·

ex-FC researcher here. pretty much gets it. some other context: it's hydrogen for cars because of the chemistry ie, start-up, shut-down and response times. mo

by jgamman 12y ago

ex-FC researcher here. pretty much gets it. some other context: it's hydrogen for cars because of the chemistry ie, start-up, shut-down and response times. most FC claims are more of a 'displaced emmissions' scheme than zero-emmissions (unless you're in say, NZ where we have @#$# loads of renewables on our grid). PEM fuel cells are limited to 100 dC due to the hydrogen ion transport via liquid water - that's a problem. at this temp you need exotic metals like Platinum to crack the molecules open for rxn - that's a problem, especially if you're into ethical mining/sourcing. FC cars will need to operate like whiteware or, well cars do now but literally be a small chemical plant. storing hydrogen isn't as easy as people think, it can really screw up 'normal' metals (lone protons are very tricky little @##@s to keep track of). having said all that, FC are fascinating from a tech perspective but IMHO, reasonably sized, high temperature FCs working in highly deregulated markets are about the only place they'll work at all and even then, there's a lot of competition with faster technology iteration rates. i've been reading the same articles since the early-90s - FC car tech is always about 10 years away.

demultiplexer 12y ago
(writer of the blog post here) Interesting, can you divulge a bit more about where and when you did FC research? Was it academic or for a manufacturer? You are absolutely right; PEM FCs - and I glossed over this in the blog post, might want to readdress it in a future part - are the only portable-enough technology for fuel cells and they inherently come with this ion transport problem and by extension cooling problem that is just unsolvable. Which is essentially the root cause of the complexity of an FCV. Anyway, I feel your jadedness. Until I actually worked with fuel cells, I had absolutely no idea. Nobody had adequately conveyed to me how these things work and what goes into actually building FCVs. Things finally started to click in my head when we had an electric kart on batteries done within days after completing the frame, yet it took many months until the fuel cell worked. And this was a pretty ready-to-go fuel cell in most respects (Hydrogenics HyPM8). I was too young back then to appreciate how long FC tech has been 'just around the corner' in the media. Now I understand. I built an FCV 7 1/2 years ago! And they're still pretty much at the same point. I wish things were different because I love the tech, but nature wins this time.
- jgamman 12y ago
  hi, feel free to get in touch via my profile if you want. I did FC research in late 90s first at Monash Uni as a post-doc (i did the MeOH reforming for my colleague who worked on the PEM) and from there moved into a development role at CFCL, one of the longer-living attempts at commercialising high temp FCs (just had a look, they're still going). with my background (heterogeneous catalysis), i mostly worked on the balance of plant (reforming, desulph and catox) and by extension the anode. from there i worked in an electricty trading division here in NZ which completely blew my mind wrt the value proposition of FC technology. Now that i understand the technology and the market, I'm happy to be doing other things. NB this isn't because i don't like FCs (i'm strangely enamored of the three-phase boundary as a topic of research ;-) but because i don't think most people, including those commercialising them really understand how they would be used and i suspect that most activity is mining clean-gen subsidies which has a place but ultimately needs to be a transition, not the end point. maybe their business cases have gotten more sophisticated over the years but i doubt it. as i tell people now - FC tech is exactly the right answer to a very specific question. most people then ask what the question is... ;-)

by jgamman 12y ago

demultiplexer 12y ago

(writer of the blog post here) Interesting, can you divulge a bit more about where and when you did FC research? Was it academic or for a manufacturer? You are absolutely right; PEM FCs - and I glossed over this in the blog post, might want to readdress it in a future part - are the only portable-enough technology for fuel cells and they inherently come with this ion transport problem and by extension cooling problem that is just unsolvable. Which is essentially the root cause of the complexity of an FCV. Anyway, I feel your jadedness. Until I actually worked with fuel cells, I had absolutely no idea. Nobody had adequately conveyed to me how these things work and what goes into actually building FCVs. Things finally started to click in my head when we had an electric kart on batteries done within days after completing the frame, yet it took many months until the fuel cell worked. And this was a pretty ready-to-go fuel cell in most respects (Hydrogenics HyPM8). I was too young back then to appreciate how long FC tech has been 'just around the corner' in the media. Now I understand. I built an FCV 7 1/2 years ago! And they're still pretty much at the same point. I wish things were different because I love the tech, but nature wins this time.

jgamman 12y ago
hi, feel free to get in touch via my profile if you want. I did FC research in late 90s first at Monash Uni as a post-doc (i did the MeOH reforming for my colleague who worked on the PEM) and from there moved into a development role at CFCL, one of the longer-living attempts at commercialising high temp FCs (just had a look, they're still going). with my background (heterogeneous catalysis), i mostly worked on the balance of plant (reforming, desulph and catox) and by extension the anode. from there i worked in an electricty trading division here in NZ which completely blew my mind wrt the value proposition of FC technology. Now that i understand the technology and the market, I'm happy to be doing other things. NB this isn't because i don't like FCs (i'm strangely enamored of the three-phase boundary as a topic of research ;-) but because i don't think most people, including those commercialising them really understand how they would be used and i suspect that most activity is mining clean-gen subsidies which has a place but ultimately needs to be a transition, not the end point. maybe their business cases have gotten more sophisticated over the years but i doubt it. as i tell people now - FC tech is exactly the right answer to a very specific question. most people then ask what the question is... ;-)