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I think that with current technology it's more efficient to store that energy in a battery than in the form of hydrogen (hydrogen is just a storage mechanism).

I think that with current technology it's more efficient to store that energy in a battery than in the form of hydrogen (hydrogen is just a storage mechanism). But it's a storage mechanism with the huge downside of being available from natural gas, so with widespread use of hydrogen we be equivalent to widespread continuous pumping of huge amounts of CO2 into oceans and the atmosphere. Something which most people consider foolish[1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_global_warming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_global_warming

rational-future 12y ago
Most people you know maybe. Most people I know are quite foolish themselves and repeat whatever their favorite TV station has brainwashed them to believe about the global warming.
Gravityloss 12y ago
Of course it's more efficient to use batteries, these are all entry level arguments. Perhaps I misread the audience. The infrastructure cost is totally different. Electrolysis and immobile storage of hydrogen is very cheap. We don't have a lot of places where for a significant portion of time when there is excess power from renewables, but we will, in the future. Edit: To clarify: if you want to produce say 40% of your yearly energy needs from wind and solar, you have to oversize the production since there are many days they produce very little. That then means there are days when they produce more than is consumed. The excess energy could be used for electrolyzing hydrogen from water. Note no carbon involved. Also the low efficiency doesn't matter, as the energy is "free". Low cost of energy storage method is much more important in this case. Any other reasons than "batteries are more efficient" for downvoting?
- dTal 12y ago
  >immobile storage of hydrogen is very cheap Where did you get this idea? You have to keep liquid hydrogen extremely chilled, under extreme pressure, and it inevitably leaks out. Compare to pumped water energy storage, which is at ambient temperature and pressure and has similar efficiency to the electrolysis -> fuel-cell cycle.
  - Gravityloss 12y ago
    Stored in any way, it's cheap compared to batteries. Also many places don't have reservoirs and mountains for pumped storage. I'm not a big believer in the hydrogen economy, but at least incorrect notions should be corrected ("no source of hydrogen besides natural gas to be seen").
    - greglindahl 12y ago
      That's not what the guy you responded to said.
  - Leynos 12y ago
    How much additional cost is incurred by converting the hydrogen to methane (combining with atmospheric CO2), then utilizing existing gas infrastructure?
  - GhotiFish 12y ago
    lots of solutions to this, one is to take carbon out of the atmosphere and make more well behaved molecules like methane http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier_reaction#Energy_storage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier_reaction#Energy_storag...
semi-extrinsic 12y ago
Many of the places that work well for solar panels are far away from the people who use electricity. Hydrogen is a good energy storage solution, to the point that eg. Australia and Saudi Arabia are contemplating commercial operations, nicknamed "solar fuels": http://reneweconomy.com.au/2014/abe-visit-may-hasten-solar-fuel-exports-from-pilbara-28277 http://reneweconomy.com.au/2014/abe-visit-may-hasten-solar-f...

rational-future 12y ago

Most people you know maybe. Most people I know are quite foolish themselves and repeat whatever their favorite TV station has brainwashed them to believe about the global warming.

Gravityloss 12y ago

Of course it's more efficient to use batteries, these are all entry level arguments. Perhaps I misread the audience. The infrastructure cost is totally different. Electrolysis and immobile storage of hydrogen is very cheap. We don't have a lot of places where for a significant portion of time when there is excess power from renewables, but we will, in the future. Edit: To clarify: if you want to produce say 40% of your yearly energy needs from wind and solar, you have to oversize the production since there are many days they produce very little. That then means there are days when they produce more than is consumed. The excess energy could be used for electrolyzing hydrogen from water. Note no carbon involved. Also the low efficiency doesn't matter, as the energy is "free". Low cost of energy storage method is much more important in this case. Any other reasons than "batteries are more efficient" for downvoting?

dTal 12y ago
>immobile storage of hydrogen is very cheap Where did you get this idea? You have to keep liquid hydrogen extremely chilled, under extreme pressure, and it inevitably leaks out. Compare to pumped water energy storage, which is at ambient temperature and pressure and has similar efficiency to the electrolysis -> fuel-cell cycle.
- Gravityloss 12y ago
  Stored in any way, it's cheap compared to batteries. Also many places don't have reservoirs and mountains for pumped storage. I'm not a big believer in the hydrogen economy, but at least incorrect notions should be corrected ("no source of hydrogen besides natural gas to be seen").
  - greglindahl 12y ago
    That's not what the guy you responded to said.
- Leynos 12y ago
  How much additional cost is incurred by converting the hydrogen to methane (combining with atmospheric CO2), then utilizing existing gas infrastructure?
- GhotiFish 12y ago
  lots of solutions to this, one is to take carbon out of the atmosphere and make more well behaved molecules like methane http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier_reaction#Energy_storage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier_reaction#Energy_storag...

semi-extrinsic 12y ago

Many of the places that work well for solar panels are far away from the people who use electricity. Hydrogen is a good energy storage solution, to the point that eg. Australia and Saudi Arabia are contemplating commercial operations, nicknamed "solar fuels": http://reneweconomy.com.au/2014/abe-visit-may-hasten-solar-fuel-exports-from-pilbara-28277 http://reneweconomy.com.au/2014/abe-visit-may-hasten-solar-f...