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The Common Cure for Heroin Addiction Is Also a Magnet for Police Harassment

112 points by Petiver 12y ago

vezzy-fnord 12y ago
Another drug used for similar purposes that both figuratively and literally has an ardent religious following to it, is ibogaine, with one of the most famous 80s hacker/counterculture figures Patrick K. Kroupa having since devoted much of his life to it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrament_of_Transition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrament_of_Transition
- zackangelo 12y ago
  Vice did a great segment on Ibogaine in their first season on HBO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkkMhKEfOqw#t=919 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkkMhKEfOqw#t=919
tomjen3 12y ago
Man this kind of shit makes me so fucking angry. What part of to protect and serve do these police not understand?
- hga 12y ago
  It's been replaced by what I call the police-judicial complex. As real crime has massively dropped over the years (demographics, as much as anything else), well, it wouldn't do to lay off a proportionate number of police, judges and their support staff, now, would it? Especially with the press' "if it bleeds, it leads", plus of course there always being high crime hot spots messing up with the public's perception of crime.
kyleblarson 12y ago
It's sad that my immediate reaction upon reading this headline is "what ISN'T a magnet for police harassment these days?".
- swombat 12y ago
  More to the point, is there any thing that is a repellant for police harassment? I can think of a few things, but generally not easily achieved (e.g. large amounts of money or power or celebrity status)...
  - proveanegative 12y ago
    Social cohesion is one possible one. For example, if you lived in a small community where the police officers knew you personally since childhood you would, on average, be less likely to be harassed by police.
    - JoshTriplett 12y ago
      As long as you meet all the social mores of that small community, as evaluated by your local busybodies. Otherwise, you're likely to be pervasively harassed.
      - proveanegative 12y ago
        That, sadly, is too often true. The only solution I see to this problem is allowing lots of different communities to exist with different sets of mores.
        troels 12y ago
        Diversity within the police department would probably help.
        JoshTriplett 12y ago
        That's a useful condition, but it ought to be completely unrelated to law enforcement. You shouldn't be required to live around people who look and think and act the same as you do to receive equal treatment by the law.
        12y ago
Spooky23 12y ago
This is the police hacking their KPIs (ie Compstat). Heroin is a hot topic in New York, now that winter and the pandering opportunity snow offers will end soon, Heroin is a big priority all the way up the chain to the governors office. They need to get arrests to avoid their Captain getting put before an inquisition at HQ. When that happens to him, the joy flows downhill. So they get more arrests, and the paper pushers are happy.
cubano 12y ago
The idea that methadone is a "cure" for heroin addiction is beyond ridiculous. In many ways, it is more habit-forming then H itself. For almost all the addicts I've ever hung around with, it was nothing but a stop-gap to be used when your money wasn't right. Also, with the availability of prescribed suboxone, the whole clinic-thing became as much a social meeting as anything else. Cops are looking for easy busts to pad their arrest numbers for promotions and raises, and trolling the clinic beat is an easy, safe way for them to achieve this, as pathetic as it is.
- simi_ 12y ago
  Are promotions/raises really based on arrest numbers instead of actual performance (hard to quantify as it is)? Who the heck had that brilliant idea?
  - hga 12y ago
    Yes, from everything I've read, e.g. there's been some recent leaks about the NYPD, and I highly recommend this classic (or its first edition, haven't read the second): http://www.amazon.com/Arrest-Proof-Yourself-Dale-C-Carson/dp/1613748043/ http://www.amazon.com/Arrest-Proof-Yourself-Dale-C-Carson/dp... (which Amazon says is the #1 best seller in "Consumer Law Business Law", which I believe).
    - anonbanker 12y ago
      Torrented. Thanks.
- skue 12y ago
  The headline should have called it a "treatment" rather than a "cure," but methadone is a legit treatment. Agreed that getting folks on suboxone would be even better, but from a public health perspective it's still preferable to switch heroin addicts to methadone because it's safer and - by being dispensed freely - can reduce drug-related crime.
  - 12y ago
adanto6840 12y ago
Is there an EFF or similar type "watchdog" group that could potentially get involved here at a more grass roots level? Makes me sick as well and it isn't obvious to me as far as what would be effective steps to take to begin curbing the behavior... Especially given that those being preyed upon are unlikely to have the means to defend and protect themselves legally.
imroot 12y ago
This type of activity isn't limited to major metro cities -- it's happening (with surprisingly frequency) in the midwest. Cincinnat/Hamilton County is notorious for doing this type of thing, but instead of with Methadone, it's with Suboxone; it's a drug that blocks the detoxification effects of heroin. The police are under pressure to make more Heroin arrests -- so much so that they're targeting people who may or may not have a criminal history and asking them if they know anyone who has some Heroin for sale -- and offering to give them up to $500 if they do. For most residents of Hamilton county, $500 is a fair amount of money....and they always 'know' someone who 'knows' someone who can supply the drug...so they'll say yes (and then get arrested for trafficking). This really boils down to a lack of good mental health and health care. I have two friends who are struggling with a Heroin addiction -- one fell off of a roof while working, and the other just can't cope with her problems; if we had better and more affordable health care (and while I support the ACA 100%, I still think we need to move to single payer healthcare), I don't think either of them would be addicted to the drug now.
- fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
  >This really boils down to a lack of good mental health and health care. And a lack of ethics at the police department.
  - saraid216 12y ago
    Saintly police officers do not cure heroin addictions.
    - mtVessel 12y ago
      But shitty policing does?
      - saraid216 12y ago
        That certain provides the mental health benefit of having someone to blame for all your problems, yeah?
SwellJoe 12y ago
I was surprised to see a Buzzfeed link on the front page of HN, and my initial thought was, "Really? How did this happen?" But, this is a surprisingly well done piece. Maybe the dude who started Buzzfeed wasn't really bullshitting us when he said he didn't want to just make a linkbait site. This is article actual journalism on a level comparable to much more "respectable" sources. I'm impressed, and I hope this is a trend. If Buzzfeed uses their massive facebook click machine for good rather than mindless entertainment, I'll be even more impressed.
- skue 12y ago
  Had the same reaction and even pulled up the BuzzFeed home page, wondering if they had refactored their style. Nope! The main page is still full of crappy linkbait lists... but here's hoping they do more articles like this.
- donw 12y ago
  I always thought that the theory behind Buzzfeed was to use a mountain of linkbait to fund actual journalism...? Of course, that doesn't help much to sort the bullshit from the pony, but it's not the worst idea.
joesmo 12y ago
I think the only way to get rid of police harassment like this and in many other cases is to remove reasonable suspicion as a cause for stopping and searching people. It's clear to anyone who has ever had dealings with the police that the police are not reasonable and neither is reasonable suspicion. It's also clear from this article that New York (and undoubtedly many other places) have an excess of police if police are harassing law abiding citizens. The problem is that we give police way too much freedom to hurt innocent people, power which they do not need to be effective. The only way we're going to reign in this power is to change the fundamentals of our laws. Police will never voluntarily give up their power. We must take it from them. We must proactively shrink the needless police force. New York is a really great example of a city that obviously has orders of magnitude more police than it needs to enforce its laws as evidenced by the recent police refusal to do their jobs and arrest people not having a negative effect. It's still amazing to me how ignorant the majority of people in this country are to police actions, though to be fair, a lot of that ignorance is willful and based on racist notions. To me, it is unfathomable that people do not warn and teach their children to avoid and fear the police as they do in most of the rest of the world, despite us having one of the most despicable law enforcement and police forces in the world.
- yaddayadda 12y ago
  > I think the only way to get rid of police harassment like this and in many other cases is to remove reasonable suspicion as a cause for stopping and searching people. As a driver, if you see someone erratically accelerating and decelerating, do you not wonder about the state of their mind as it relates to their ability to drive, and in particular how their erratic behavior may cause an accident? While I go out of my way to avoid being near such drivers, I do still hope they get pulled over. I don't care if the reason for their erratic driving is due to being on the phone (illegal in several states), a bee flying around the vehicle (distracted driving; although I certainly hope the officer wouldn't give a ticket), or the poor person was having a heart attack (hopefully the officer can call for medical assistance and in the meantime provide CPR). In other words, there are good reasons to enable stopping someone when officers do have a reasonable suspicion. The counter-point is that there is frequently conscious discrimination or implicit bias, as illustrated in the article. One way to deal with this, that was being used over 20 years ago on a military base where I was stationed, was a no-go parameter around the bars on base. Except when explicitly dispatched, the military police were not allowed to be within the no-go perimeter (about 1/2 mile if memory serves) around the bar around closing time (like 30 minutes before and after). There's no reason a similar policy couldn't be put into place around methadone clinics. From the sounds of the article, in addition to dealing with discriminatory reasonable suspicion, there's also a desperate need to more fully educate police officers and judicial officials. For example, just having methadone shouldn't qualify as a DUI and the case discussed in the article indicates there was a systemic failure.
elcct 12y ago
They don't want people to quit because that will mean lost profits and time to get into some serious work than harassing vulnerable people.

112 points by Petiver 12y ago

Another drug used for similar purposes that both figuratively and literally has an ardent religious following to it, is ibogaine, with one of the most famous 80s hacker/counterculture figures Patrick K. Kroupa having since devoted much of his life to it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrament_of_Transition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrament_of_Transition

zackangelo 12y ago
Vice did a great segment on Ibogaine in their first season on HBO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkkMhKEfOqw#t=919 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkkMhKEfOqw#t=919

tomjen3 12y ago

Man this kind of shit makes me so fucking angry. What part of to protect and serve do these police not understand?

hga 12y ago
It's been replaced by what I call the police-judicial complex. As real crime has massively dropped over the years (demographics, as much as anything else), well, it wouldn't do to lay off a proportionate number of police, judges and their support staff, now, would it? Especially with the press' "if it bleeds, it leads", plus of course there always being high crime hot spots messing up with the public's perception of crime.

kyleblarson 12y ago

It's sad that my immediate reaction upon reading this headline is "what ISN'T a magnet for police harassment these days?".

swombat 12y ago
More to the point, is there any thing that is a repellant for police harassment? I can think of a few things, but generally not easily achieved (e.g. large amounts of money or power or celebrity status)...
- proveanegative 12y ago
  Social cohesion is one possible one. For example, if you lived in a small community where the police officers knew you personally since childhood you would, on average, be less likely to be harassed by police.
  - JoshTriplett 12y ago
    As long as you meet all the social mores of that small community, as evaluated by your local busybodies. Otherwise, you're likely to be pervasively harassed.
    - proveanegative 12y ago
      That, sadly, is too often true. The only solution I see to this problem is allowing lots of different communities to exist with different sets of mores.
      - troels 12y ago
        Diversity within the police department would probably help.
      - JoshTriplett 12y ago
        That's a useful condition, but it ought to be completely unrelated to law enforcement. You shouldn't be required to live around people who look and think and act the same as you do to receive equal treatment by the law.
        12y ago

Spooky23 12y ago

This is the police hacking their KPIs (ie Compstat). Heroin is a hot topic in New York, now that winter and the pandering opportunity snow offers will end soon, Heroin is a big priority all the way up the chain to the governors office. They need to get arrests to avoid their Captain getting put before an inquisition at HQ. When that happens to him, the joy flows downhill. So they get more arrests, and the paper pushers are happy.

cubano 12y ago

The idea that methadone is a "cure" for heroin addiction is beyond ridiculous. In many ways, it is more habit-forming then H itself. For almost all the addicts I've ever hung around with, it was nothing but a stop-gap to be used when your money wasn't right. Also, with the availability of prescribed suboxone, the whole clinic-thing became as much a social meeting as anything else. Cops are looking for easy busts to pad their arrest numbers for promotions and raises, and trolling the clinic beat is an easy, safe way for them to achieve this, as pathetic as it is.

simi_ 12y ago
Are promotions/raises really based on arrest numbers instead of actual performance (hard to quantify as it is)? Who the heck had that brilliant idea?
- hga 12y ago
  Yes, from everything I've read, e.g. there's been some recent leaks about the NYPD, and I highly recommend this classic (or its first edition, haven't read the second): http://www.amazon.com/Arrest-Proof-Yourself-Dale-C-Carson/dp/1613748043/ http://www.amazon.com/Arrest-Proof-Yourself-Dale-C-Carson/dp... (which Amazon says is the #1 best seller in "Consumer Law Business Law", which I believe).
  - anonbanker 12y ago
    Torrented. Thanks.
skue 12y ago
The headline should have called it a "treatment" rather than a "cure," but methadone is a legit treatment. Agreed that getting folks on suboxone would be even better, but from a public health perspective it's still preferable to switch heroin addicts to methadone because it's safer and - by being dispensed freely - can reduce drug-related crime.
- 12y ago

adanto6840 12y ago

Is there an EFF or similar type "watchdog" group that could potentially get involved here at a more grass roots level? Makes me sick as well and it isn't obvious to me as far as what would be effective steps to take to begin curbing the behavior... Especially given that those being preyed upon are unlikely to have the means to defend and protect themselves legally.

imroot 12y ago

This type of activity isn't limited to major metro cities -- it's happening (with surprisingly frequency) in the midwest. Cincinnat/Hamilton County is notorious for doing this type of thing, but instead of with Methadone, it's with Suboxone; it's a drug that blocks the detoxification effects of heroin. The police are under pressure to make more Heroin arrests -- so much so that they're targeting people who may or may not have a criminal history and asking them if they know anyone who has some Heroin for sale -- and offering to give them up to $500 if they do. For most residents of Hamilton county, $500 is a fair amount of money....and they always 'know' someone who 'knows' someone who can supply the drug...so they'll say yes (and then get arrested for trafficking). This really boils down to a lack of good mental health and health care. I have two friends who are struggling with a Heroin addiction -- one fell off of a roof while working, and the other just can't cope with her problems; if we had better and more affordable health care (and while I support the ACA 100%, I still think we need to move to single payer healthcare), I don't think either of them would be addicted to the drug now.

fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
>This really boils down to a lack of good mental health and health care. And a lack of ethics at the police department.
- saraid216 12y ago
  Saintly police officers do not cure heroin addictions.
  - mtVessel 12y ago
    But shitty policing does?
    - saraid216 12y ago
      That certain provides the mental health benefit of having someone to blame for all your problems, yeah?

SwellJoe 12y ago

I was surprised to see a Buzzfeed link on the front page of HN, and my initial thought was, "Really? How did this happen?" But, this is a surprisingly well done piece. Maybe the dude who started Buzzfeed wasn't really bullshitting us when he said he didn't want to just make a linkbait site. This is article actual journalism on a level comparable to much more "respectable" sources. I'm impressed, and I hope this is a trend. If Buzzfeed uses their massive facebook click machine for good rather than mindless entertainment, I'll be even more impressed.

skue 12y ago
Had the same reaction and even pulled up the BuzzFeed home page, wondering if they had refactored their style. Nope! The main page is still full of crappy linkbait lists... but here's hoping they do more articles like this.
donw 12y ago
I always thought that the theory behind Buzzfeed was to use a mountain of linkbait to fund actual journalism...? Of course, that doesn't help much to sort the bullshit from the pony, but it's not the worst idea.

joesmo 12y ago

I think the only way to get rid of police harassment like this and in many other cases is to remove reasonable suspicion as a cause for stopping and searching people. It's clear to anyone who has ever had dealings with the police that the police are not reasonable and neither is reasonable suspicion. It's also clear from this article that New York (and undoubtedly many other places) have an excess of police if police are harassing law abiding citizens. The problem is that we give police way too much freedom to hurt innocent people, power which they do not need to be effective. The only way we're going to reign in this power is to change the fundamentals of our laws. Police will never voluntarily give up their power. We must take it from them. We must proactively shrink the needless police force. New York is a really great example of a city that obviously has orders of magnitude more police than it needs to enforce its laws as evidenced by the recent police refusal to do their jobs and arrest people not having a negative effect. It's still amazing to me how ignorant the majority of people in this country are to police actions, though to be fair, a lot of that ignorance is willful and based on racist notions. To me, it is unfathomable that people do not warn and teach their children to avoid and fear the police as they do in most of the rest of the world, despite us having one of the most despicable law enforcement and police forces in the world.

yaddayadda 12y ago
> I think the only way to get rid of police harassment like this and in many other cases is to remove reasonable suspicion as a cause for stopping and searching people. As a driver, if you see someone erratically accelerating and decelerating, do you not wonder about the state of their mind as it relates to their ability to drive, and in particular how their erratic behavior may cause an accident? While I go out of my way to avoid being near such drivers, I do still hope they get pulled over. I don't care if the reason for their erratic driving is due to being on the phone (illegal in several states), a bee flying around the vehicle (distracted driving; although I certainly hope the officer wouldn't give a ticket), or the poor person was having a heart attack (hopefully the officer can call for medical assistance and in the meantime provide CPR). In other words, there are good reasons to enable stopping someone when officers do have a reasonable suspicion. The counter-point is that there is frequently conscious discrimination or implicit bias, as illustrated in the article. One way to deal with this, that was being used over 20 years ago on a military base where I was stationed, was a no-go parameter around the bars on base. Except when explicitly dispatched, the military police were not allowed to be within the no-go perimeter (about 1/2 mile if memory serves) around the bar around closing time (like 30 minutes before and after). There's no reason a similar policy couldn't be put into place around methadone clinics. From the sounds of the article, in addition to dealing with discriminatory reasonable suspicion, there's also a desperate need to more fully educate police officers and judicial officials. For example, just having methadone shouldn't qualify as a DUI and the case discussed in the article indicates there was a systemic failure.

elcct 12y ago

They don't want people to quit because that will mean lost profits and time to get into some serious work than harassing vulnerable people.