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"I've never understood [...] why talking about qualia and consciousness depends on having them" It doesn't, but someone has to have them in order for the conce

by gort 17y ago

"I've never understood [...] why talking about qualia and consciousness depends on having them" It doesn't, but someone has to have them in order for the concepts to get introduced in the first place. Imagine a world that has always been populated entirely by p-zombies. By definition, that world should be indistinguishable from this world, so how on earth did they get started talking about consciousness and qualia? In your example of the "ouch" printing program, someone had to have pain and say "ouch" before such a program was made.

gloob 17y ago
Imagine a world that has always been populated entirely by p-zombies. By definition, that world should be indistinguishable from this world, so how on earth did they get started talking about consciousness and qualia? The answer to the question "how did they get started talking about qualia" is: by definition, the hypothetical Z-world is indistinguishable from ours. In our world, people talk about qualia. Therefore, in the Z-world, zombies talk about qualia. What's more, the beginning of "zombies talking about qualia" would be the same as the beginning of "people talking about qualia". I have a feeling I'm misunderstanding you. In your example of the "ouch" printing program, someone had to have pain and say "ouch" before such a program was made. Why? What if the program is the output of a random number generator? Does that mean the random number generator experiences pain?
- deleted 17y ago
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- orangecat 17y ago
  The answer to the question "how did they get started talking about qualia" is: by definition, the hypothetical Z-world is indistinguishable from ours. In our world, people talk about qualia. Therefore, in the Z-world, zombies talk about qualia. Right. Which implies that the reason that we talk about qualia is not that we have them (otherwise zombies wouldn't), but for some completely different reason that just happens to exactly line up with the qualia that we in fact do have. That would be an astounding coincidence and is a major strike against the theory per Occam's Razor.
anamax 17y ago
> It doesn't, but someone has to have them in order for the concepts to get introduced in the first place. Huh? People talk about dragons and other things that don't exist. With qualia et al, the only difference is that folks are claiming to have it. Maybe telekinesis or other psychic powers are a better example.

by gort 17y ago

gloob 17y ago

Imagine a world that has always been populated entirely by p-zombies. By definition, that world should be indistinguishable from this world, so how on earth did they get started talking about consciousness and qualia? The answer to the question "how did they get started talking about qualia" is: by definition, the hypothetical Z-world is indistinguishable from ours. In our world, people talk about qualia. Therefore, in the Z-world, zombies talk about qualia. What's more, the beginning of "zombies talking about qualia" would be the same as the beginning of "people talking about qualia". I have a feeling I'm misunderstanding you. In your example of the "ouch" printing program, someone had to have pain and say "ouch" before such a program was made. Why? What if the program is the output of a random number generator? Does that mean the random number generator experiences pain?

deleted 17y ago
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orangecat 17y ago
The answer to the question "how did they get started talking about qualia" is: by definition, the hypothetical Z-world is indistinguishable from ours. In our world, people talk about qualia. Therefore, in the Z-world, zombies talk about qualia. Right. Which implies that the reason that we talk about qualia is not that we have them (otherwise zombies wouldn't), but for some completely different reason that just happens to exactly line up with the qualia that we in fact do have. That would be an astounding coincidence and is a major strike against the theory per Occam's Razor.

anamax 17y ago

> It doesn't, but someone has to have them in order for the concepts to get introduced in the first place. Huh? People talk about dragons and other things that don't exist. With qualia et al, the only difference is that folks are claiming to have it. Maybe telekinesis or other psychic powers are a better example.