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I know it's verboten to talk about HN on HN, but it's fun clicking refresh and watching people upvote and downvote my comment. Talking about male prejudice in t

by tianaco 17y ago

I know it's verboten to talk about HN on HN, but it's fun clicking refresh and watching people upvote and downvote my comment. Talking about male prejudice in the tech community really gets under people's skin, including my cofounder bravura who said that maybe I shouldn't have posted and rankled people.

fjabre 17y ago
Yes, you're correct: people don't like being accused of being prejudice, especially in a community like this which prides itself on being open minded. Your gender isn't important here. Whether or not you're an entrepreneur with a plan, is. EDIT: This discussion really belongs in another thread.
- tianaco 17y ago
  It's easy to pride oneself on being open-minded when one is surrounded by the same type of person. I wish my gender wasn't important, but the way I've gotten treated by a majority of men in tech has spoken volumes.
- mrkurt 17y ago
  Prejudice is a loaded word, but everyone is prejudiced. It's not unreasonable to think that people with totally different life experiences than yours are going to see things in a different light.
- tptacek 17y ago
  There's definitely subtle and persistent sexism on HN, but that doesn't make the original commenter's complaint about the new YC process any more valid. I agree that filling out a YC application is the least of your real-world problems.
- _pius 17y ago
  When did she accuse anyone here of prejudice? edit: Downmod me into oblivion if you like, but it's sad to me that she can't state her concerns and life experience without someone making it into an attack on the YC community. Male privilege is real, discrimination is real. If downmodding and arguing that simple fact makes you feel better, go ahead.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
amichail 17y ago
Would you prefer to have gender hidden in the initial phase of the application?
- tianaco 17y ago
  That's impossible with the video aspect.
  - chrischen 17y ago
    I think it says on the app that they view your video if they think the application is promising.
    - tianaco 17y ago
      I thought it says they're likely to view your demo if the application is promising... and they like viewing videos.
      - chrischen 17y ago
        You're right, I must have gotten them mixed up. But still they say they usually look at the video, and I think this implies that unless the rest of the application is good enough to justify spending another minute or two watching the video, they probably won't. But then again it might just be used to give you another chance if your application is crap.
maxklein 17y ago
Everyone gets judged. Everyone has prejudices. It's much easier to recognize when others are prejudicial against you than when you are against others. You know how it is when you discuss technology with men, and first of all, they hold back, assuming you likely don't know or are not interested? Do you realise you likely do the same thing? If you meet a Mexican gardener, do you not do the same? Why? Why not just starting talking web services with him? Because you don't expect him to know about the topic. It's your vorurteil, your judgement before knowledge, and it's an essential part of being human. We observe a pattern, and we act on this pattern. So, yes, there is prejudice. But it's not malicious, it's simply the observation of a way things are, and an expectancy on how they will be. This form of prejudice, you have to accept. They do it to you, and you will do it to me. That does not mean that in such a case as the YC applications you will be judged differently. You will be judged the same, because the fact that you have gone through the steps that brought you to that application level, means that you are at the same level as all the other people. So this invisible prejudice, this pre-judgement has already fallen away, as the people know what you are already.
9oliYQjP 17y ago
The fact that you're willing to get under people's skin is an asset. Many of the problems we face in the tech community are due to a predominately male culture that lacks the assertiveness to resolve problems in their own favour. We write books that outline our struggles, like The Mythical Man Month, without realizing it isn't tactics that are the source of our problems, but our overall strategy of resigning ourselves to merely follow orders. Take this very discussion as an example. How many men are secretly wishing that PG reads their application rather than it being read by a YC alumnus, but have posted ass-kissing comments anyway? For some reason I've worked with far more female programmers than most programmers I know. Here are some things that women are up against in our industry: 1. Being coerced into "lighter" programming tasks like "front end" development, QA, or UX design when their interests lie in more complex programming domains. 2. An assumption of not being aggressive enough to manage a team. To add insult to injury, women that do show aggression are isolated and marginalized for having chips on their shoulders or being bitchy. 3. Dealing with what I call the "little sister" phenomenon. This is where a predominately male development team, in a bid to try to be nice to the one female team member, actually does more harm than good. They become overprotective, try not to hurt her feelings, and are generally patronizing. This affects the types of work loads that are placed on the female team member and what is expected of her. If it's any consolation, there are men in this industry that have worked with a lot of female programmers and understand as best we can, where you're coming from. For what it's worth, I think you're already one step ahead of most of these other female programmers I know (many are friends so I know them well). Their problem is an unwillingness to shake the boat. You don't seem to have that problem. Moreover, who cares if you're correct or incorrect? If people read your post properly they would have heard that you were merely describing how you feel. You can't change how you feel about this situation. And like I said at the beginning of this rant, if more men in our industry shared how they felt with others, we might not have to put up with ridiculous time/resource constraints, impossible project objectives, etc.
- tianaco 17y ago
  Hear, hear. I loved your comment. You too seem to be sensitive to the issues, and like me are unsure what is the correct solution, although are willing to discuss it. The fact that you're willing to get under people's skin is an asset. I hope that is the case, and that more people reading this thread are sympathetic to my position than are offended. Their problem is an unwillingness to shake the boat. You don't seem to have that problem. There was a book written in the 70's called "Women Don't Ask". It starts with a case study about grad school TA assignments, and why men got the best assignments in this particular department. The answer from administrators: "Well, we gave positions to everyone who asked for a specific one. And only men asked. So women got the remainders." (For a period of time, the book was given away to any woman who would ask for it.) Since I read about that book in a review, I resolved that I would always ask for what I want. This is part of my entrepreneurial style. I get what I want because I try to know everyone, and I am good at asking for what I want directly politely and firmly. [edit: this tends to work better for me in person than on the inter-web/twitter-scape/whatever you guys call it. ]

by tianaco 17y ago

fjabre 17y ago

Yes, you're correct: people don't like being accused of being prejudice, especially in a community like this which prides itself on being open minded. Your gender isn't important here. Whether or not you're an entrepreneur with a plan, is. EDIT: This discussion really belongs in another thread.

tianaco 17y ago
It's easy to pride oneself on being open-minded when one is surrounded by the same type of person. I wish my gender wasn't important, but the way I've gotten treated by a majority of men in tech has spoken volumes.
mrkurt 17y ago
Prejudice is a loaded word, but everyone is prejudiced. It's not unreasonable to think that people with totally different life experiences than yours are going to see things in a different light.
tptacek 17y ago
There's definitely subtle and persistent sexism on HN, but that doesn't make the original commenter's complaint about the new YC process any more valid. I agree that filling out a YC application is the least of your real-world problems.
_pius 17y ago
When did she accuse anyone here of prejudice? edit: Downmod me into oblivion if you like, but it's sad to me that she can't state her concerns and life experience without someone making it into an attack on the YC community. Male privilege is real, discrimination is real. If downmodding and arguing that simple fact makes you feel better, go ahead.

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

amichail 17y ago

Would you prefer to have gender hidden in the initial phase of the application?

tianaco 17y ago
That's impossible with the video aspect.
- chrischen 17y ago
  I think it says on the app that they view your video if they think the application is promising.
  - tianaco 17y ago
    I thought it says they're likely to view your demo if the application is promising... and they like viewing videos.
    - chrischen 17y ago
      You're right, I must have gotten them mixed up. But still they say they usually look at the video, and I think this implies that unless the rest of the application is good enough to justify spending another minute or two watching the video, they probably won't. But then again it might just be used to give you another chance if your application is crap.

maxklein 17y ago

Everyone gets judged. Everyone has prejudices. It's much easier to recognize when others are prejudicial against you than when you are against others. You know how it is when you discuss technology with men, and first of all, they hold back, assuming you likely don't know or are not interested? Do you realise you likely do the same thing? If you meet a Mexican gardener, do you not do the same? Why? Why not just starting talking web services with him? Because you don't expect him to know about the topic. It's your vorurteil, your judgement before knowledge, and it's an essential part of being human. We observe a pattern, and we act on this pattern. So, yes, there is prejudice. But it's not malicious, it's simply the observation of a way things are, and an expectancy on how they will be. This form of prejudice, you have to accept. They do it to you, and you will do it to me. That does not mean that in such a case as the YC applications you will be judged differently. You will be judged the same, because the fact that you have gone through the steps that brought you to that application level, means that you are at the same level as all the other people. So this invisible prejudice, this pre-judgement has already fallen away, as the people know what you are already.

9oliYQjP 17y ago

The fact that you're willing to get under people's skin is an asset. Many of the problems we face in the tech community are due to a predominately male culture that lacks the assertiveness to resolve problems in their own favour. We write books that outline our struggles, like The Mythical Man Month, without realizing it isn't tactics that are the source of our problems, but our overall strategy of resigning ourselves to merely follow orders. Take this very discussion as an example. How many men are secretly wishing that PG reads their application rather than it being read by a YC alumnus, but have posted ass-kissing comments anyway? For some reason I've worked with far more female programmers than most programmers I know. Here are some things that women are up against in our industry: 1. Being coerced into "lighter" programming tasks like "front end" development, QA, or UX design when their interests lie in more complex programming domains. 2. An assumption of not being aggressive enough to manage a team. To add insult to injury, women that do show aggression are isolated and marginalized for having chips on their shoulders or being bitchy. 3. Dealing with what I call the "little sister" phenomenon. This is where a predominately male development team, in a bid to try to be nice to the one female team member, actually does more harm than good. They become overprotective, try not to hurt her feelings, and are generally patronizing. This affects the types of work loads that are placed on the female team member and what is expected of her. If it's any consolation, there are men in this industry that have worked with a lot of female programmers and understand as best we can, where you're coming from. For what it's worth, I think you're already one step ahead of most of these other female programmers I know (many are friends so I know them well). Their problem is an unwillingness to shake the boat. You don't seem to have that problem. Moreover, who cares if you're correct or incorrect? If people read your post properly they would have heard that you were merely describing how you feel. You can't change how you feel about this situation. And like I said at the beginning of this rant, if more men in our industry shared how they felt with others, we might not have to put up with ridiculous time/resource constraints, impossible project objectives, etc.

tianaco 17y ago
Hear, hear. I loved your comment. You too seem to be sensitive to the issues, and like me are unsure what is the correct solution, although are willing to discuss it. The fact that you're willing to get under people's skin is an asset. I hope that is the case, and that more people reading this thread are sympathetic to my position than are offended. Their problem is an unwillingness to shake the boat. You don't seem to have that problem. There was a book written in the 70's called "Women Don't Ask". It starts with a case study about grad school TA assignments, and why men got the best assignments in this particular department. The answer from administrators: "Well, we gave positions to everyone who asked for a specific one. And only men asked. So women got the remainders." (For a period of time, the book was given away to any woman who would ask for it.) Since I read about that book in a review, I resolved that I would always ask for what I want. This is part of my entrepreneurial style. I get what I want because I try to know everyone, and I am good at asking for what I want directly politely and firmly. [edit: this tends to work better for me in person than on the inter-web/twitter-scape/whatever you guys call it. ]