8 ms·

How a Handgun Works: 1911 .45

140 points by bkyan 12y ago

ghshephard 12y ago
Somewhat related to another thread today - if I was creating a series of knowledge resources that would describe how to rebuild the world's technology from scratch, in addition to the detailed blueprints, and background descriptions - I'd also have a series of animagraffs included with each one - these animations tell a very complex story very quickly.
- themodelplumber 12y ago
  Have you read Lucifer's Hammer? There's a guy in the book who kind makes this his mission.
  - ghshephard 12y ago
    One of my favorite books. But, he wasn't using animagraffs, was he? I seem to recall him burying a bunch of books in plastic, possibly in the ground? There's a pretty well known concept around writing "Restart Civilization" texts (They make an appearance in another niven/pournelle book, The Mote in Gods Eye) - I just think the animagraffs would be a useful addition to the tools in which to do so.
- Argorak 12y ago
  I'd start with animation technology ;).
- justin66 12y ago
  > I'd also have a series of animagraffs included with each one - these animations tell a very complex story very quickly. If this is typical of animagraffs, it might be a really weak starting point. Someone went to all the trouble of making drawings, animations, and written copy without even explaining the difference between blowback and locked breach operation. Someone taking in all that text and looking at the drawings might have some serious delusions of understanding. In the case of a pistol it's especially weird: it really is simple enough that it seems like you could explain how it works using these methods. This kind of problem deserves its own word. I suggest we call it pseudodetail.
  - Paul_S 12y ago
    The animations are really neat but I was thinking the same thing. It's science porn with emphasis on porn. But I don't think they're meant to be educational - "just" impressive.
    - calvin_c 12y ago
      But I'd imagine that if a society were starting over there would still be a lot to be learned, even with whatever guides were left behind. These animations could serve as a starting point for engineers to work from, discovering problems and solutions along the way. As far as sheer information density goes, I think these get a large amount done even if there is much left out.
  - icegreentea 12y ago
    Agreed. For the benefit of those who don't know, blowback and locked breached operations are the two primary operating methods of semi-auto pistol actions. In a blowback action, the recoil spring and mass of slide is sufficient to keep the breech closed until after the bullet as left the barrel. It's important to wait for the bullet to leave, so that pressure can sufficiently decrease, you else you might get all sorts of nasty stuff - like the casing bursting and possibly damaging the weapon and/or the shooter. Blowback is appropriate for lower power rounds. As power increases, the mass of slide and stiffness of spring must increase, and at some point may become impractical. So for locked breech actions, some other mechanism is used to lock the breech closed until after the bullet as left the barrel. In the case of the 1911, is the combination of the locking lugs and and the pivoting link. The locking lugs lock the barrel into the slide, so that when fired the barrel and slide initially travel together rearwards. The pivoting link (that thing behind the recoil spring) allows the entire barrel to drop down as it travels backwards. As it drops, the lugs disengage with the slide, allowing the slide the continue to the rear and open the breech. All of this is calculated so that the pressure is safe when this occurs. There are a variety of ways to do locked breech. The 1911's action (tilting barrel) is particularly influential.
    - rdl 12y ago
- deleted 12y ago
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pconner 12y ago
The word "clip" was briefly mentioned in this article. I never understood the "don't call 'magazines' 'clips'" fanaticism among gun enthusiasts. It seems to be a pretty common colloquialism for "magazine" in popular culture now.
- walshemj 12y ago
  Because clips are used for putting the bullets into the mag commonly used in ww1 era Rifles like the Lee Enfield.
- 542458 12y ago
  Just because it's a popular colloquialism doesn't mean it's not incorrect. As a "clip" is a entirely different thing calling the two by the same name only confuses things, especially when a firearm uses both a magazine and clips.
- gh02t 12y ago
  Well they are distinctly different things, but I think it's an in-group/jargon thing. "Gun people" culture is to emphasize the distinction between a magazine and a clip, while normal people don't really care. You see it all the time in other communities, like how people here on HN would laugh at someone purporting to be a 'hacker' going on about how they like to 'program in HTML'. Now, if you really want to have fun with gun people, break out the old suppressor vs. silencer argument. The distinction between the two is ill-defined and there may or may not be a difference depending on who you ask, but some people will argue for hours over it.
- privong 12y ago
  > I never understood the "don't call 'magazines' 'clips'" fanaticism among gun enthusiasts. It's because "clip" refers to somthing different, if related. A clip refers specifically to a mechanism that clips onto multiple rounds of ammo in order to allow it to be inserted into a (fixed) magazine[0]. Some guns with fixed magazines use clips to enable faster reloading, while guns with removable magazines don't need a clip, because the entire magazine is swapped out. From outward appearances, and to a possibly untrained observer, reloading via inserting a clip looks similar to reloading with a removable magazine, which I presume is the source of the conflation. But, for some people, correct terminology is important; "coder" vs "hacker" vs "cracker", I suppose? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clip_%28ammunition%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clip_%28ammunition%29
trevordev 12y ago
High caliber post. I'm curious about the manufacturing process and rate of firing error. There were a lot of moving parts and it would seem difficult to ensure that the gun won't get jammed or have other issues.
- ericcumbee 12y ago
  They happen even in quality weapons like a 1911 or your modern Glock or Sig Sauer. The biggest one is Failure to Eject, where the cartridge casing fails to completely clear the chamber and gets stuck in the extractor. They do test fire them at the factory (10 rounds or so) but it takes anywhere between 200-500 rounds to properly break a firearm in. And even then it can depend on the brand, type and quality of the rounds you are using. I bought a bunch of cheap ammo for practice. my Sig Sauer runs it fine, my friends old no name gun Fails to Eject it 1 in 5 times. That is why most firearm instructors say to never trust a firearm and ammunition combo for defensive purposes until you've run 500 rounds.
  - alistairSH 12y ago
    Another thing I've noticed - the 1911 is produced by a wide range of manufacturers. The boutique brands can be a bit finicky and the buyers are often tinkerers, which can give a pistol neophyte a skewed perception of the design.
- exelius 12y ago
  You are right to be concerned about such things -- the 1911 is notorious for jamming frequently. Specifically the ejector mechanism; if the gun is not held steady after firing, the spent cartridge tends to get jammed between the barrel and the slide. This is even more common among people with small hands since they don't have the leverage to handle the recoil of a relatively beefy .45 cartridge. This is the primary reason why the army replaced the 1911 with the Baretta M9, a 9mm pistol with much less recoil and a larger magazine size. The M9 is much less prone to jamming for a number of reasons, but the bullet is much lighter and has significantly less stopping power. A .45 round will generally put someone on their ass even if it doesn't kill them from kinetic energy alone; the same can't be said for a 9mm.
wyc 12y ago
Wow, these are great! How do you make them?
- Shivetya 12y ago
  I agree, I am going to be stuck on this site a bit today from what I can tell.
josteink 12y ago
I find it fascinating that more than a century ago, people were able to visualize, protype and execute these kind of complex, intertwined mechanical designs. I like 1911 style guns and my next gun will probably be such a model.
- Zancarius 12y ago
  John Moses Browning played a substantial part in a number of different firearms (and other firearm-related things). I'm sure you're probably already aware of this, but those who are browsing the comments might not. The man was a genius. For instance: .50 BMG = Browning Machine Gun; the round and the M2 machine gun. The Browning Hi-Power. The .380 auto is sometimes referred to as the 9mm Browning. Probably obvious why... Heck, I should just stop listing these off, because there's way too many things JMB took part in. I'll leave this [1] link instead. It's also worth mentioning that you could probably credit Browning indirectly for a number of other designs currently in use that either borrow directly from his work or are inspired by it, including most modern automatic pistols (yes, even Glock). > I like 1911 style guns and my next gun will probably be such a model. I'd definitely suggest it. Sure, it's not as "elegant" as some of the polymer frames out there these days, but it's still a workhorse. There's something about the older designs that are remarkable feats of engineering for their day, to say nothing of the incredible history behind them that seems attractive to be a small part of by way of ownership. That said, owning both a 1911 and a Glock, I'll admit that I can't really pin a favorite. I like both for different reasons. While I doubt I'll buy another 1911 (I won't rule out a conversion kit, though...) since I have my eyes on other Glock models (and possibly another brand of polymer), it's a design that's almost timeless. Mine's an SR1911 (model 6700) with rosewood grips, and it's sexy. But loads of other manufacturers are making some great looking 1911s at all different price points. It would almost seem sacrilegious to have a gun collection without a 1911. :) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Browning#Cartridges http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Browning#Cartridges (and the "firearms" section below that).
  - remarkEon 12y ago
    That said, owning both a 1911 and a Glock, I'll admit that I can't really pin a favorite. Very true. I think a lot of the appreciation I have for the 1911 comes from its history. I learned to shoot with a 9mm, but honestly the "adjustment" people talk about to a .40 or .45 is negligible. I will say that when I have all the pieces laid out, I do like looking at the Glock (23) on the table a bit more.
jMyles 12y ago
Awesome! Do you have one for a striker-fired pistol?
exabrial 12y ago
1911 == favorite pistol ever
jonstokes 12y ago
For people interested in these sorts of animated wireframes of guns in action, there's a great app for that: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/gun-disassembly-2/id435073422?mt=12 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/gun-disassembly-2/id43507342... I have no connection to the app or developers, FYI. I found it very useful when learning how to disassemble and reassemble my Ruger Mark III. I'm pretty sure there's either a desktop version of this, or there's a clone of it for the desktop. Either, way, highly recommended if you're a gun person.
Galacticus 12y ago
Don't waste your time on this website. It's a lazy-loader and never loads. There is no content.
sandworm 12y ago
There are some slight errors in the animation. Details, but those are important when talking about classics. Better animation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6SmlOEzNBs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6SmlOEzNBs Watch the barrel. In the OP the entire barrel floats up and down slightly. That's incorrect. The breech end of the barrel moves up and down, the other end not so much. This is important because the angle between the barrel and the next round doesn't change in the former. Check the vid at about 3:24, after the assembly, to see what I'm talking about. Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKRMcTlbWTs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKRMcTlbWTs And the recoil animation is wrong. The gun in the OP is recoiling while the bullet is still in the barrel. That's logical, but in reality recoil only gets going after the bullet is away. Once it's out of the way the remaining propellants really accelerate, causing the bulk of the recoil. That's why recoil doesn't impact accuracy. Flinching in anticipation of recoil is another matter. Watch this gun at 00:10 and note it doesn't move until the bullet is long gone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um9Eos9bJDk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um9Eos9bJDk Proper 1911 recoil animation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H3IFJXxyEs&list=PL1469B47BBD916A46 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H3IFJXxyEs&list=PL1469B47BB...
michaelbuddy 12y ago
The animation is too fast for me to really see what's going on on all sides.

140 points by bkyan 12y ago

Somewhat related to another thread today - if I was creating a series of knowledge resources that would describe how to rebuild the world's technology from scratch, in addition to the detailed blueprints, and background descriptions - I'd also have a series of animagraffs included with each one - these animations tell a very complex story very quickly.

themodelplumber 12y ago
Have you read Lucifer's Hammer? There's a guy in the book who kind makes this his mission.
- ghshephard 12y ago
  One of my favorite books. But, he wasn't using animagraffs, was he? I seem to recall him burying a bunch of books in plastic, possibly in the ground? There's a pretty well known concept around writing "Restart Civilization" texts (They make an appearance in another niven/pournelle book, The Mote in Gods Eye) - I just think the animagraffs would be a useful addition to the tools in which to do so.
Argorak 12y ago
I'd start with animation technology ;).
justin66 12y ago
> I'd also have a series of animagraffs included with each one - these animations tell a very complex story very quickly. If this is typical of animagraffs, it might be a really weak starting point. Someone went to all the trouble of making drawings, animations, and written copy without even explaining the difference between blowback and locked breach operation. Someone taking in all that text and looking at the drawings might have some serious delusions of understanding. In the case of a pistol it's especially weird: it really is simple enough that it seems like you could explain how it works using these methods. This kind of problem deserves its own word. I suggest we call it pseudodetail.
- Paul_S 12y ago
  The animations are really neat but I was thinking the same thing. It's science porn with emphasis on porn. But I don't think they're meant to be educational - "just" impressive.
  - calvin_c 12y ago
    But I'd imagine that if a society were starting over there would still be a lot to be learned, even with whatever guides were left behind. These animations could serve as a starting point for engineers to work from, discovering problems and solutions along the way. As far as sheer information density goes, I think these get a large amount done even if there is much left out.
- icegreentea 12y ago
  Agreed. For the benefit of those who don't know, blowback and locked breached operations are the two primary operating methods of semi-auto pistol actions. In a blowback action, the recoil spring and mass of slide is sufficient to keep the breech closed until after the bullet as left the barrel. It's important to wait for the bullet to leave, so that pressure can sufficiently decrease, you else you might get all sorts of nasty stuff - like the casing bursting and possibly damaging the weapon and/or the shooter. Blowback is appropriate for lower power rounds. As power increases, the mass of slide and stiffness of spring must increase, and at some point may become impractical. So for locked breech actions, some other mechanism is used to lock the breech closed until after the bullet as left the barrel. In the case of the 1911, is the combination of the locking lugs and and the pivoting link. The locking lugs lock the barrel into the slide, so that when fired the barrel and slide initially travel together rearwards. The pivoting link (that thing behind the recoil spring) allows the entire barrel to drop down as it travels backwards. As it drops, the lugs disengage with the slide, allowing the slide the continue to the rear and open the breech. All of this is calculated so that the pressure is safe when this occurs. There are a variety of ways to do locked breech. The 1911's action (tilting barrel) is particularly influential.
  - rdl 12y ago
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

pconner 12y ago

The word "clip" was briefly mentioned in this article. I never understood the "don't call 'magazines' 'clips'" fanaticism among gun enthusiasts. It seems to be a pretty common colloquialism for "magazine" in popular culture now.

walshemj 12y ago
Because clips are used for putting the bullets into the mag commonly used in ww1 era Rifles like the Lee Enfield.
542458 12y ago
Just because it's a popular colloquialism doesn't mean it's not incorrect. As a "clip" is a entirely different thing calling the two by the same name only confuses things, especially when a firearm uses both a magazine and clips.
gh02t 12y ago
Well they are distinctly different things, but I think it's an in-group/jargon thing. "Gun people" culture is to emphasize the distinction between a magazine and a clip, while normal people don't really care. You see it all the time in other communities, like how people here on HN would laugh at someone purporting to be a 'hacker' going on about how they like to 'program in HTML'. Now, if you really want to have fun with gun people, break out the old suppressor vs. silencer argument. The distinction between the two is ill-defined and there may or may not be a difference depending on who you ask, but some people will argue for hours over it.
privong 12y ago
> I never understood the "don't call 'magazines' 'clips'" fanaticism among gun enthusiasts. It's because "clip" refers to somthing different, if related. A clip refers specifically to a mechanism that clips onto multiple rounds of ammo in order to allow it to be inserted into a (fixed) magazine[0]. Some guns with fixed magazines use clips to enable faster reloading, while guns with removable magazines don't need a clip, because the entire magazine is swapped out. From outward appearances, and to a possibly untrained observer, reloading via inserting a clip looks similar to reloading with a removable magazine, which I presume is the source of the conflation. But, for some people, correct terminology is important; "coder" vs "hacker" vs "cracker", I suppose? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clip_%28ammunition%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clip_%28ammunition%29

trevordev 12y ago

High caliber post. I'm curious about the manufacturing process and rate of firing error. There were a lot of moving parts and it would seem difficult to ensure that the gun won't get jammed or have other issues.

ericcumbee 12y ago
They happen even in quality weapons like a 1911 or your modern Glock or Sig Sauer. The biggest one is Failure to Eject, where the cartridge casing fails to completely clear the chamber and gets stuck in the extractor. They do test fire them at the factory (10 rounds or so) but it takes anywhere between 200-500 rounds to properly break a firearm in. And even then it can depend on the brand, type and quality of the rounds you are using. I bought a bunch of cheap ammo for practice. my Sig Sauer runs it fine, my friends old no name gun Fails to Eject it 1 in 5 times. That is why most firearm instructors say to never trust a firearm and ammunition combo for defensive purposes until you've run 500 rounds.
- alistairSH 12y ago
  Another thing I've noticed - the 1911 is produced by a wide range of manufacturers. The boutique brands can be a bit finicky and the buyers are often tinkerers, which can give a pistol neophyte a skewed perception of the design.
exelius 12y ago
You are right to be concerned about such things -- the 1911 is notorious for jamming frequently. Specifically the ejector mechanism; if the gun is not held steady after firing, the spent cartridge tends to get jammed between the barrel and the slide. This is even more common among people with small hands since they don't have the leverage to handle the recoil of a relatively beefy .45 cartridge. This is the primary reason why the army replaced the 1911 with the Baretta M9, a 9mm pistol with much less recoil and a larger magazine size. The M9 is much less prone to jamming for a number of reasons, but the bullet is much lighter and has significantly less stopping power. A .45 round will generally put someone on their ass even if it doesn't kill them from kinetic energy alone; the same can't be said for a 9mm.

wyc 12y ago

Wow, these are great! How do you make them?

Shivetya 12y ago
I agree, I am going to be stuck on this site a bit today from what I can tell.

josteink 12y ago

I find it fascinating that more than a century ago, people were able to visualize, protype and execute these kind of complex, intertwined mechanical designs. I like 1911 style guns and my next gun will probably be such a model.

Zancarius 12y ago
John Moses Browning played a substantial part in a number of different firearms (and other firearm-related things). I'm sure you're probably already aware of this, but those who are browsing the comments might not. The man was a genius. For instance: .50 BMG = Browning Machine Gun; the round and the M2 machine gun. The Browning Hi-Power. The .380 auto is sometimes referred to as the 9mm Browning. Probably obvious why... Heck, I should just stop listing these off, because there's way too many things JMB took part in. I'll leave this [1] link instead. It's also worth mentioning that you could probably credit Browning indirectly for a number of other designs currently in use that either borrow directly from his work or are inspired by it, including most modern automatic pistols (yes, even Glock). > I like 1911 style guns and my next gun will probably be such a model. I'd definitely suggest it. Sure, it's not as "elegant" as some of the polymer frames out there these days, but it's still a workhorse. There's something about the older designs that are remarkable feats of engineering for their day, to say nothing of the incredible history behind them that seems attractive to be a small part of by way of ownership. That said, owning both a 1911 and a Glock, I'll admit that I can't really pin a favorite. I like both for different reasons. While I doubt I'll buy another 1911 (I won't rule out a conversion kit, though...) since I have my eyes on other Glock models (and possibly another brand of polymer), it's a design that's almost timeless. Mine's an SR1911 (model 6700) with rosewood grips, and it's sexy. But loads of other manufacturers are making some great looking 1911s at all different price points. It would almost seem sacrilegious to have a gun collection without a 1911. :) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Browning#Cartridges http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Browning#Cartridges (and the "firearms" section below that).
- remarkEon 12y ago
  That said, owning both a 1911 and a Glock, I'll admit that I can't really pin a favorite. Very true. I think a lot of the appreciation I have for the 1911 comes from its history. I learned to shoot with a 9mm, but honestly the "adjustment" people talk about to a .40 or .45 is negligible. I will say that when I have all the pieces laid out, I do like looking at the Glock (23) on the table a bit more.

jMyles 12y ago

Awesome! Do you have one for a striker-fired pistol?

exabrial 12y ago

1911 == favorite pistol ever

jonstokes 12y ago

For people interested in these sorts of animated wireframes of guns in action, there's a great app for that: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/gun-disassembly-2/id435073422?mt=12 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/gun-disassembly-2/id43507342... I have no connection to the app or developers, FYI. I found it very useful when learning how to disassemble and reassemble my Ruger Mark III. I'm pretty sure there's either a desktop version of this, or there's a clone of it for the desktop. Either, way, highly recommended if you're a gun person.

Galacticus 12y ago

Don't waste your time on this website. It's a lazy-loader and never loads. There is no content.

sandworm 12y ago

There are some slight errors in the animation. Details, but those are important when talking about classics. Better animation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6SmlOEzNBs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6SmlOEzNBs Watch the barrel. In the OP the entire barrel floats up and down slightly. That's incorrect. The breech end of the barrel moves up and down, the other end not so much. This is important because the angle between the barrel and the next round doesn't change in the former. Check the vid at about 3:24, after the assembly, to see what I'm talking about. Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKRMcTlbWTs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKRMcTlbWTs And the recoil animation is wrong. The gun in the OP is recoiling while the bullet is still in the barrel. That's logical, but in reality recoil only gets going after the bullet is away. Once it's out of the way the remaining propellants really accelerate, causing the bulk of the recoil. That's why recoil doesn't impact accuracy. Flinching in anticipation of recoil is another matter. Watch this gun at 00:10 and note it doesn't move until the bullet is long gone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um9Eos9bJDk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um9Eos9bJDk Proper 1911 recoil animation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H3IFJXxyEs&list=PL1469B47BBD916A46 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H3IFJXxyEs&list=PL1469B47BB...

michaelbuddy 12y ago

The animation is too fast for me to really see what's going on on all sides.