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I feel like this is going to work against me - in a really serious way. First of all, I really liked knowing that I had a one in three chance of a woman, Jessi

by tianaco 17y ago

I feel like this is going to work against me - in a really serious way. First of all, I really liked knowing that I had a one in three chance of a woman, Jessica Livingston, reading my application. I liked how the application felt like a college application; they judge you based upon your potential and what you've done in your circumstances, not like an investor who says: "What experience and traction do you have?". I totally trusted PG, Jessica + TLB to see my potential and tailored my application to the rubric they stated on the website--looking for outstanding "outside of the box" people. Having entrepreneurs, who may not be as used to thinking outside the box of "who is a good founder?" will be more biased towards founders like themselves - i.e. male coders. This comes as a very sad surprise to me. I have a feeling I'm going to be treated as I usually am by the men in technology - which is an outsider. I know that there are VERY FEW female YC founders and I know that having male coders looking at my application is going to totally work against me, if for no other reason than they don't relate to me. [edit: I sincerely apologize that my comment has generated so much heat. I wanted to raise a concern, I'm sorry this got out of hand.]

bravura 17y ago
I too am worried about being judged by YC Alumni, much like I worry about being judged by geeks in general. Even though I'm a geek myself (coding for 2/3rd my lifetime, Ph.D. in comp sci, etc.), people usually mistake me for an artist, and that works against me initially. (Later on, when they get to know me, it turns around and they're like: "Oh, it's good you're so well-rounded", but only if I can overcome the initial prejudice.) The YC application reads like they want to judge you based upon your potential and breadth of experience. I focused in my application on showing my diverse background, and how I don't fit into a standard mold. My concern too is that YC Alumni might be subconciously be like: "We look for people who don't fit into a standard mold, but only ones that fit into a certain mold of not fitting into a certain mold."
- antonovka 17y ago
  I would be interested to hear how you see your art and technology interests converging.
  - bravura 17y ago
    Designers don't understand what science is capable of, and the scientists don't know how to deliver a consumer-facing product. It's especially good if you have design, technology, and business all in one. By understanding business, technology, and design, I feel like our venture is poised to have a disruptive impact. If you email me, I will send you a link to our demo. [edit: My profile plus Googling my name will lead you to my email address.]
    - unalone 17y ago
      I don't see your email address listed anywhere. Can you email me? Always a delight to talk to a self-identified artist. i.am@me.com.
- jwhitlark 17y ago
  As the public head of YC has written a book entitled "Hackers and Painters", I'd not worry to much about that. I doubt anyone with the attitudes you're worrying about would make his selection criteria as additional reviewer.
  - jwhitlark 17y ago
    s/to/too/g Where did the edit button go? [EDIT] works fine for this post. Does it expire, or is this thread causing problems...
tianaco 17y ago
I know it's verboten to talk about HN on HN, but it's fun clicking refresh and watching people upvote and downvote my comment. Talking about male prejudice in the tech community really gets under people's skin, including my cofounder bravura who said that maybe I shouldn't have posted and rankled people.
- fjabre 17y ago
  Yes, you're correct: people don't like being accused of being prejudice, especially in a community like this which prides itself on being open minded. Your gender isn't important here. Whether or not you're an entrepreneur with a plan, is. EDIT: This discussion really belongs in another thread.
  - tianaco 17y ago
    It's easy to pride oneself on being open-minded when one is surrounded by the same type of person. I wish my gender wasn't important, but the way I've gotten treated by a majority of men in tech has spoken volumes.
  - mrkurt 17y ago
    Prejudice is a loaded word, but everyone is prejudiced. It's not unreasonable to think that people with totally different life experiences than yours are going to see things in a different light.
  - tptacek 17y ago
    There's definitely subtle and persistent sexism on HN, but that doesn't make the original commenter's complaint about the new YC process any more valid. I agree that filling out a YC application is the least of your real-world problems.
  - _pius 17y ago
    When did she accuse anyone here of prejudice? edit: Downmod me into oblivion if you like, but it's sad to me that she can't state her concerns and life experience without someone making it into an attack on the YC community. Male privilege is real, discrimination is real. If downmodding and arguing that simple fact makes you feel better, go ahead.
abstractbill 17y ago
I understand this concern, but just wanted to say I've observed far less prejudice at justin.tv than in my previous job, which was a company of more than 1000 employees, with lots of HR policies against that kind of thing. It's been my experience that YC startups are generally much closer to actual meritocracies than the average bay-area tech company.
crystalis 17y ago
I feel like this is going to work against me - in a really serious way. Perhaps because of the chip on your shoulder? Edit: Your concern of being judged poorly by the alumni screeners is showing the same bias you expect the screeners to have. Do you really expect a small cohort of people who have made it through multiple levels of PG vetting to be so small-minded? YC hasn't shown itself to be so lacking in vision.
- tianaco 17y ago
  I expect them for better or for worse to reinforce what they've already seen at y-combinator. As I said, I don't think they're going to relate to me.
- bravura 17y ago
  Everyone has biases. Theorems in machine learning show that you cannot generalize to new circumstance without bias. "Without the aid of prejudice and custom, I should not be able to find my way across the room." --William Hazlitt tianaco is just saying that she worries that YC alumni will have the wrong bias when confronted with certain applicants of broad experience outside what they expect. Let's hope that she is wrong.
adrianwaj 17y ago
You've been on HN for 8 days. Imagine you were on it for 800 days, and then take your average comment mark, that's how you'll rank regardless of what makes you you.
- tianaco 17y ago
  long time lurker, short time commenter
  - adrianwaj 17y ago
    Why is that?
    - tianaco 17y ago
      when I occasionally wanted to comment I used bravura's account. I created an account only because the application required one.
      - adrianwaj 17y ago
        well, that's a nice hack. But lessens your karma for the sake of bravura's. A tad shady.
        tianaco 17y ago
        It's only shady if you care about karma.
        adrianwaj 17y ago
        For the application, I mean. Usually the convention is 1 user = 1 person.
        bravura 17y ago
        In reply to adrianwaj: For the application, I mean. Usually the convention is 1 user = 1 person. I wasn't thinking about the Y-combinator application when I registered my account 450 days ago and when tianaco occasionally commented on threads. I don't see this as a problem.
antonovka 17y ago
I know that there are VERY FEW female YC founders and I know that having male coders looking at my application is going to totally work against me, if for no other reason than they don't relate to me. Individuals tend to internalize negatives. If you tell them that they aren't going to relate to you because they're men, they're going to internalize that and have trouble relating to you. There is plenty of overt and veiled sexism in technology -- much of it, you can't control. However, if you come into every scenario projecting an assumption of sexism, that's likely what you'll always find.
- tianaco 17y ago
  Since the beginning, I have found this sexism. People are VERY hesitant to talk about it. I always hope it will go away, but when I consistently walk into meetings and men will not look me in the face and they re-ask my male partner the same questions they ask me... well, you learn from past experiences.
  - antonovka 17y ago
    Since the beginning, I have found this sexism. Yes, it's incorrigible and often justified with sophomoric platitudes, even here on HN. ... well, you learn from past experiences. However, the presupposition that someone will be prejudiced against you on the basis of their gender can also be damaging to social interactions -- such as this one.
    - tianaco 17y ago
      Yes, it's incorrigible and often justified with sophomoric platitudes, even here on HN. I can't tell if you're insinuating that I am using sophomoric platitudes, but I hope you respect that I have been trying to speak mostly about my personal experiences. However, the presupposition that someone will be prejudiced against you on the basis of their gender can also be damaging to social interactions -- such as this one. I think we all know that people are prejudiced. Confronting people on their prejudices can be damaging, or it can jolt them out of their complacency and get them to view you with a fresh set of eyes. It usually depends on the person and also how honestly and straightforwardly you present yourself.
mattyb 17y ago
So you know, Robert Morris is also a partner. Your chances were one in four. http://ycombinator.com/people.html http://ycombinator.com/people.html
- tianaco 17y ago
  We've spoken to a few YC alum and they suggested RTM isn't so involved in the selection process. Perhaps they were misinformed.
  - pg 17y ago
    That's the part he's most involved in.
icey 17y ago
Okay, so here's what I don't get: If you think the fact that you're a woman will somehow come out as a negative in the YC application process for you, how do you expect to survive as a startup? I guarantee you succeeding as a company is a lot tougher than filling out a form. Either what you're working on has merit or it doesn't. That doesn't change depending on who reads about it. I don't doubt that you have had challenges in the technology field as a woman, but that's not going to change inside or outside of YC.
- tianaco 17y ago
  I agree that succeeding as a company is tougher than filling out a form. The YC application seems to be more focused on who you are as a person than on your technology. I highlighted that on the application. But I have a feeling that my accomplishments are not going to be as appreciated by a given YC alum than the original people that wrote the YC application. That's all.
  - icey 17y ago
    Well, hopefully you'll see this as an opportunity to turn this into a chance to work on your marketing skills to a larger audience. I get the feeling that PG is a tougher person to sell an idea to than most startup founders are.
  - jwhitlark 17y ago
    As an aside, Guy Kawasaki has spoken on the advantage women have over men in startups, namely not focusing on killing some company, but making something people want. I'd guess that a successful YC alum has a high probability of having read his work.
  - jlees 17y ago
    I think your final paragraph is entirely gender neutral and could apply to pretty much any applicant. The point of alums and YC both reading it has already been made, as well. My point, though: sure, running a company is more about the company than the person, but as a female founder (I can't exactly speak from experience as a male one!) it's entirely down to your personal presentation of the company, the technology, the idea. Sure, people in meetings don't tend to ask what the coolest thing you ever hacked was, but especially as a small company, it's definitely still personal. There are organisations like Astia, which I'm involved with, that help make it easier for women; I suggest checking them out if you're seriously worried about the gender gap. Yes, we do get treated differently, and having to re-establish hacker credentials time and again when people assume you work in marketing gets old. Funnily enough it's worse in Silicon Valley (so far in my experience) than back home in England. Still. There are things that you can do to make life easier, tricks that everyone from Margaret Thatcher to Queen Elizabeth, to female generals and CEOs have all employed. Your cofounders can help too, if you're having trouble because people ask them the same questions, by backing you up wholeheartedly (that could easily be an authority issue not a gender one). It's a rough road but having the chance of a woman read your YC app is really such a minor thing that it's not worth getting twisted up about.
deleted 17y ago
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chrischen 17y ago
Personally I highly doubt their biases will be large enough to discredit, or even affect, the merit you show in your application.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
jlm382 17y ago
As a female in the tech industry, I actually don't think anyone has been sexist towards me - at least not in any way that has impacted my career or my desire to be in this industry. I feel that I've been judged by my merit, and Silicon Valley is actually at the forefront of trying to bring down this gender barrier. If anything, the stereotypical hacker guy wants to see more women in the industry. If 99% of the industry was female, wouldn't you be ecstatic to see a guy come in? If tech was a female dominated world, I might subconsciously look for MORE reasons to accept a male founder. Guys in tech enjoy the prospect of diversity and believe in women more than you give them credit for. Think about the plus side: having more male coders reading over your application might actually give you the upper-hand!
- tianaco 17y ago
  That would be nice. I also wonder if things are better on the West Coast. My experience has been on the East.
Major_Grooves 17y ago
I'm not sure if you've said elsewhere, but are you a solo applicant? You talk about "I". You don't mention what sex your co-founder is. If you are a solo applicant then being female is the least of your worries - solo applicants seldom (ever?) get accepted to YC. my co-founder (jlees) is XX. She was the face on our application video last time and we got invited over for an interview. I've no idea if Jessica was the one that looked at the video - to be honest the thought never crossed my mind that it might help us get to interview stage. Lose the chip from your shoulder and just concentrate on making a confident, compelling application. :)
- tianaco 17y ago
  No, we had 2 submissions - One headed by my partner with 4 founders, another headed by me with 2 founders. The other founders are all men. I am the first face on our application video. We did that to set us apart from the rest of the videos. I'm done with my applications, and confident that we made good applications for the people that we initially thought were going to review them... but not for unknown founders whose personal biases we are unaware of, but I can only assume based on my personal experiences with men in tech. Re: "chip on my shoulder" would you be offended if your peers wouldn't look you in the face? how about if they re-asked your business partners the same questions they asked you, only to get the same response?
  - Major_Grooves 17y ago
    Sorry but if you've got breasts then you'll have to get used to guys looking at them. There was a recent study from NZ that found that 47% of men's first glances at a women were towards their breasts. It's just biology. Also take in to account your average male coder might not have seen any for a while - well it is male dominated (sorry - "got to wait for the liquidity event to have a liquidity event!")! ;) wrt to asking your co-founders the same questions, my guess is that you are so paranoid about the "not looking in the eyes" thing that you appear unconfident and unsure, so people look to your co-founders for confirmation.
    - tianaco 17y ago
Major_Grooves 17y ago
and another thing, I don't want to speak for jlees, but I've never got the impression she was treated as an "outsider". A novelty perhaps, but I think it wears off a second once she starts talking code. I'm a non-coder and I feel much more of an outsider. ;) if anyone really wants to feel like an outsider, try being a guy at a "women in tech" event.
- gruseom 17y ago
  I'm a non-coder and I feel much more of an insider You meant outsider, right? Seems to me that's what you meant... if so, you've made a very good point.
  - Major_Grooves 17y ago
    sorry - you're correct. ^^Edited.
lleger 17y ago
Seriously? You're kidding, right?
edw519 17y ago
If your intent was to bring attention to yourself in the 11th hour, you may have succeeded. That attention, however, may not be what you wanted. As a male, I will not pretend to imagine what you go through because of our differences. I can only speak from my experience as a wimpy appearing introvert who has had earn everything I've ever had because hardly anyone has ever given me anything. I do not mean to offend and apologize ahead of time in case I do... To me, this entire thread comes off as whining and can only hurt you. Entrepreneurs must treat obstacles as speed bumps to conquer, not roadblocks to complain about. I suggest you redirect any energy you put into this thread into making your start-up better and put your trust into that effort. You'll probably have to make it so good that they can't ignore it. That's what everyone should do anyway. I wish you great success doing that.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- boredguy8 17y ago
  I work with a few smart women and find that I constantly have to redirect attention and praise back to them when the two of us are working on a project together. If I had a dollar every time I said, "Thanks, but Sarah really championed that approach," or "Yeah, Sarah really pushed the vendors to meet our price point: we wouldn't have been under budget without her," I'd be a far richer person. "Wimpy male introvert" is hardly an exceptionally rare stereotype within IT, and 'not being given anything' is hardly the same as 'having things taken away', which I constantly see happening. And it's not like a few posts on news.yc is a massive time-sink that's 'energy' that needs to be redirected internally. Honestly, I'm so glad I'm not a woman in IT. Not only do you get crapped on, you get told not to complain when it happens.
- tianaco 17y ago
  No, this thread was a reaction to the announcement that was just revealed. I feel entitled to state my opinion after I spent so much time tailoring my application to a specific rubric. I'm sure you understand. The fact that my concern is controversial, but perhaps resonates with people, is why it got so much attention. HN exists as a forum for discussion and I raised a discussion that is germane to this announcement. A lot of other entrepreneurs have raised similar concerns in different ways... which is why this thread is so popular. I got under people's skin. But for you to call it "whiney" is really out of line. My concerns about this announcement as just as valid as other's people's as evidenced by the amount of upvotes.
jeremymims 17y ago
Wow. Y Combinator has funded female cofounders before and it is my understanding that most batches have had women in them. If anything, I think they'd almost be more willing to fund female cofounders because there isn't enough data out there to know if or how female cofounders in YC startups deviate from the success rate in a notable way. Since Y Combinator is about funding startups that are likely to succeed, this is an additional (and I think positive) way to test the methods of picking they've used in the past. Are YC founders as capable as YC at picking successful startups? I think this is a very interesting question. Y Combinator doesn't make any promises about who they're going to invest in. Trying to hack your way into YC based merely on the chance that Jessica will be reading your application is a bad idea. Calling bias before you've heard anything from YC seems like a particularly bad idea and risks you coming off as entitled. Spend your time improving your product. If your product is so specific to female interests that a male founder who's reading it doesn't know whether or not there will be a marketplace for it, I'd imagine he'd get a second opinion. If you are rejected, don't for one second think that it was because you were female. It would be for many many more reasons before that one. Remember, most men will get rejected by YC too. If your product is good, continue working on it. Y Combinator would be the first to admit that they don't always get it right and you do not need Y Combinator to have a successful startup. Disclosure: I was a cofounder in YCS08.
- andreyf 17y ago
  If anything, I think they'd almost be more willing to fund female cofounders because there isn't enough data out there to know if or how female cofounders in YC startups deviate from the success rate in a notable way. Being "more willing" to fund female cofounders will bias the question of how they deviate from the success rate, no?
  - btilly 17y ago
    Treating women exactly equally means that you're almost to the point of giving them a preference. ;-)
wheels 17y ago
As I recall Jessica wasn't doing the primary phase of vetting applications anyway -- that was Trevor, Paul and Robert.
pg 17y ago
As I explained here, the alumni are going to read applications in addition to us, not instead of us: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=908585 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=908585 I'm not sure what you meant about a "one in three chance," but it sounds like you're misunderstanding how we read applications. We don't split them up. Also, there are 4 YC founders, not 3. The way it usually works is that Robert, Trevor and I (separately) read and rank the applications. Then Jessica looks at the top-ranked ones to see if there are any red flags we've overlooked.
- tianaco 17y ago
  My mistake. I spoke to a few YC alums and they told me that RTM wasn't really involved. Thank you for clarifying.
- vivek_ganesh 17y ago
  Paul, Would you tell us, which YC alumni is going to read the applications for us in advance,if we see any conflicts then, we delte our application. Thanks,
  - pg 17y ago
    Software assigns them randomly. But if you want me to delete your application just let me know.
nadam 17y ago
So you have a little prejudice:) about: - successful applicants i.e. outside-of-the-box people may not have an idea about who are outside the box people. - most of these outside-of-the-box people are males an can be simply categorized as 'coders'. In fact I don't get your problem exactly. I suppose that there can be 2 cases, which is true? A. You are a 'female coder' and you think that 'male coders' have such a prejudice that a female coder cannot be as good as a 'male coder'. B. You think that you really are different from these male coders (perhaps you are not a coder), so even if these guys don't have prejudice about female coders, they think so differently from you, that they will not relate to your application. A. and B. are very different things, and I could not find out what your problem is from your description.
- tianaco 17y ago
  B. I'm not a coder. I feel that most of my accomplishments will not read as well to a coder as they won't identify with them. That's it. (I have technical co-founders)
  - Major_Grooves 17y ago
    Well that's it then. It's just because you're a non-coder (presuming these negative experiences have been when speaking to coders rather than men in general). You're in the same boat as me! Try coming to a YC BBQ - that was a pretty tech-intense experience for me! You'll find a lot of the coders that you feel uncomfortable with, would feel quite uncomfortable at the type of events you revel in.
joez 17y ago
It's a thread like this that make me appreciate the ability to collapse threads. Tianaco, I don't want to argue the merits of your concerns but this is not the correct place to discuss it. Try sending PG an email? My immediate reactions were adjectives like baiting, hijacking and trolling. I don't mean to call you names, but this was just how this whole thread came off to me as. I don't appreciate that when I come back to this thread that the majority of the comments about the state of the female entrepreneur. I also believe YC is the exception instead of the rule.
kyro 17y ago
Your comment comes off as over-dramatic, and somewhat fake, almost like you're looking more for attention than justice. Nowhere on the app does it ask you for your sex. If you were so afraid of your application being viewed differently because you are a woman, hiding that fact on the app is as simple as using an alias and answering the questions without saying 'OH YEAH, AND I'M A WOMAN.' And if you think any of those at YC, whether pg and gang, or the alumni, would 'dock' you on points for being a woman and overlook your potential and that of your idea, you yourself are being sexist for assuming that a man would be so irrational and illogical for the sake of gender discrimination. And sorry for being harsh, but don't pull that 'they don't relate to me' crap. We're all aspiring entrepreneurs trying to make it out there with our ideas, connections, talents, etc, and any decent person would judge you on such. I don't need a pair of breasts and a rush of estrogen to relate to you. You're perpetuating the same gender gap you are criticizing others of exploiting. I know you're a woman, but man up.
- tianaco 17y ago
  kryo, that was a really nasty, disparaging, and insensitive thing to write. You can figure out that I'm a woman within 30 seconds of reading my application because of the organizations I've been involved with, what I studied, my accomplishments... oh, and of course the video. Second, it's less about being "docked" because I'm a woman, but more about evaluators not relating to my accomplishments because what they value doesn't line up with what I've accomplished. You can scoff at the "'they don't relate to me' crap", as you so eloquently put it. Or you can look at it for what it is: a problem in the tech world which results in a higher barrier to entry for women than it does for men. It's easier to ignore this as if it doesn't exist and feign umbrage to me stating my fears, than it is to actually examine what goes on in an open-minded and sensitive way. To relate to me you don't need a "a pair of breasts and a rush of estrogen" (how vulgar?!) but you do need a modicum of open-mindedness and sensitivity. Such characteristics you sorely lack. I'm not trying to perpetuate the gender gap, but to acknowledge that it does exist in tech. Via discussion and awareness, maybe one day it will cease to exist. That's what I really want. Men AND women evaluating me who see my potential as a businessperson even though I don't fit the mold of a traditional Silicon Valley tech entrepreneur. Unlike most women in technology that I've met who have encountered bias and discrimination due to their gender, I'm NOT afraid to talk about it. I'm happy I brought this up and am not at all sorry that it offended you.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]

by tianaco 17y ago

bravura 17y ago

I too am worried about being judged by YC Alumni, much like I worry about being judged by geeks in general. Even though I'm a geek myself (coding for 2/3rd my lifetime, Ph.D. in comp sci, etc.), people usually mistake me for an artist, and that works against me initially. (Later on, when they get to know me, it turns around and they're like: "Oh, it's good you're so well-rounded", but only if I can overcome the initial prejudice.) The YC application reads like they want to judge you based upon your potential and breadth of experience. I focused in my application on showing my diverse background, and how I don't fit into a standard mold. My concern too is that YC Alumni might be subconciously be like: "We look for people who don't fit into a standard mold, but only ones that fit into a certain mold of not fitting into a certain mold."

antonovka 17y ago
I would be interested to hear how you see your art and technology interests converging.
- bravura 17y ago
  Designers don't understand what science is capable of, and the scientists don't know how to deliver a consumer-facing product. It's especially good if you have design, technology, and business all in one. By understanding business, technology, and design, I feel like our venture is poised to have a disruptive impact. If you email me, I will send you a link to our demo. [edit: My profile plus Googling my name will lead you to my email address.]
  - unalone 17y ago
    I don't see your email address listed anywhere. Can you email me? Always a delight to talk to a self-identified artist. i.am@me.com.
jwhitlark 17y ago
As the public head of YC has written a book entitled "Hackers and Painters", I'd not worry to much about that. I doubt anyone with the attitudes you're worrying about would make his selection criteria as additional reviewer.
- jwhitlark 17y ago
  s/to/too/g Where did the edit button go? [EDIT] works fine for this post. Does it expire, or is this thread causing problems...

tianaco 17y ago

I know it's verboten to talk about HN on HN, but it's fun clicking refresh and watching people upvote and downvote my comment. Talking about male prejudice in the tech community really gets under people's skin, including my cofounder bravura who said that maybe I shouldn't have posted and rankled people.

fjabre 17y ago
Yes, you're correct: people don't like being accused of being prejudice, especially in a community like this which prides itself on being open minded. Your gender isn't important here. Whether or not you're an entrepreneur with a plan, is. EDIT: This discussion really belongs in another thread.
- tianaco 17y ago
  It's easy to pride oneself on being open-minded when one is surrounded by the same type of person. I wish my gender wasn't important, but the way I've gotten treated by a majority of men in tech has spoken volumes.
- mrkurt 17y ago
  Prejudice is a loaded word, but everyone is prejudiced. It's not unreasonable to think that people with totally different life experiences than yours are going to see things in a different light.
- tptacek 17y ago
  There's definitely subtle and persistent sexism on HN, but that doesn't make the original commenter's complaint about the new YC process any more valid. I agree that filling out a YC application is the least of your real-world problems.
- _pius 17y ago
  When did she accuse anyone here of prejudice? edit: Downmod me into oblivion if you like, but it's sad to me that she can't state her concerns and life experience without someone making it into an attack on the YC community. Male privilege is real, discrimination is real. If downmodding and arguing that simple fact makes you feel better, go ahead.

abstractbill 17y ago

I understand this concern, but just wanted to say I've observed far less prejudice at justin.tv than in my previous job, which was a company of more than 1000 employees, with lots of HR policies against that kind of thing. It's been my experience that YC startups are generally much closer to actual meritocracies than the average bay-area tech company.

crystalis 17y ago

I feel like this is going to work against me - in a really serious way. Perhaps because of the chip on your shoulder? Edit: Your concern of being judged poorly by the alumni screeners is showing the same bias you expect the screeners to have. Do you really expect a small cohort of people who have made it through multiple levels of PG vetting to be so small-minded? YC hasn't shown itself to be so lacking in vision.

tianaco 17y ago
I expect them for better or for worse to reinforce what they've already seen at y-combinator. As I said, I don't think they're going to relate to me.
bravura 17y ago
Everyone has biases. Theorems in machine learning show that you cannot generalize to new circumstance without bias. "Without the aid of prejudice and custom, I should not be able to find my way across the room." --William Hazlitt tianaco is just saying that she worries that YC alumni will have the wrong bias when confronted with certain applicants of broad experience outside what they expect. Let's hope that she is wrong.

adrianwaj 17y ago

You've been on HN for 8 days. Imagine you were on it for 800 days, and then take your average comment mark, that's how you'll rank regardless of what makes you you.

tianaco 17y ago
long time lurker, short time commenter
- adrianwaj 17y ago
  Why is that?
  - tianaco 17y ago
    when I occasionally wanted to comment I used bravura's account. I created an account only because the application required one.
    - adrianwaj 17y ago
      well, that's a nice hack. But lessens your karma for the sake of bravura's. A tad shady.
      - tianaco 17y ago
        It's only shady if you care about karma.
        adrianwaj 17y ago
        For the application, I mean. Usually the convention is 1 user = 1 person.
        bravura 17y ago
        In reply to adrianwaj: For the application, I mean. Usually the convention is 1 user = 1 person. I wasn't thinking about the Y-combinator application when I registered my account 450 days ago and when tianaco occasionally commented on threads. I don't see this as a problem.

antonovka 17y ago

I know that there are VERY FEW female YC founders and I know that having male coders looking at my application is going to totally work against me, if for no other reason than they don't relate to me. Individuals tend to internalize negatives. If you tell them that they aren't going to relate to you because they're men, they're going to internalize that and have trouble relating to you. There is plenty of overt and veiled sexism in technology -- much of it, you can't control. However, if you come into every scenario projecting an assumption of sexism, that's likely what you'll always find.

tianaco 17y ago
Since the beginning, I have found this sexism. People are VERY hesitant to talk about it. I always hope it will go away, but when I consistently walk into meetings and men will not look me in the face and they re-ask my male partner the same questions they ask me... well, you learn from past experiences.
- antonovka 17y ago
  Since the beginning, I have found this sexism. Yes, it's incorrigible and often justified with sophomoric platitudes, even here on HN. ... well, you learn from past experiences. However, the presupposition that someone will be prejudiced against you on the basis of their gender can also be damaging to social interactions -- such as this one.
  - tianaco 17y ago
    Yes, it's incorrigible and often justified with sophomoric platitudes, even here on HN. I can't tell if you're insinuating that I am using sophomoric platitudes, but I hope you respect that I have been trying to speak mostly about my personal experiences. However, the presupposition that someone will be prejudiced against you on the basis of their gender can also be damaging to social interactions -- such as this one. I think we all know that people are prejudiced. Confronting people on their prejudices can be damaging, or it can jolt them out of their complacency and get them to view you with a fresh set of eyes. It usually depends on the person and also how honestly and straightforwardly you present yourself.

mattyb 17y ago

So you know, Robert Morris is also a partner. Your chances were one in four. http://ycombinator.com/people.html http://ycombinator.com/people.html

tianaco 17y ago
We've spoken to a few YC alum and they suggested RTM isn't so involved in the selection process. Perhaps they were misinformed.
- pg 17y ago
  That's the part he's most involved in.

icey 17y ago

Okay, so here's what I don't get: If you think the fact that you're a woman will somehow come out as a negative in the YC application process for you, how do you expect to survive as a startup? I guarantee you succeeding as a company is a lot tougher than filling out a form. Either what you're working on has merit or it doesn't. That doesn't change depending on who reads about it. I don't doubt that you have had challenges in the technology field as a woman, but that's not going to change inside or outside of YC.

tianaco 17y ago
I agree that succeeding as a company is tougher than filling out a form. The YC application seems to be more focused on who you are as a person than on your technology. I highlighted that on the application. But I have a feeling that my accomplishments are not going to be as appreciated by a given YC alum than the original people that wrote the YC application. That's all.
- icey 17y ago
  Well, hopefully you'll see this as an opportunity to turn this into a chance to work on your marketing skills to a larger audience. I get the feeling that PG is a tougher person to sell an idea to than most startup founders are.
- jwhitlark 17y ago
  As an aside, Guy Kawasaki has spoken on the advantage women have over men in startups, namely not focusing on killing some company, but making something people want. I'd guess that a successful YC alum has a high probability of having read his work.
- jlees 17y ago
  I think your final paragraph is entirely gender neutral and could apply to pretty much any applicant. The point of alums and YC both reading it has already been made, as well. My point, though: sure, running a company is more about the company than the person, but as a female founder (I can't exactly speak from experience as a male one!) it's entirely down to your personal presentation of the company, the technology, the idea. Sure, people in meetings don't tend to ask what the coolest thing you ever hacked was, but especially as a small company, it's definitely still personal. There are organisations like Astia, which I'm involved with, that help make it easier for women; I suggest checking them out if you're seriously worried about the gender gap. Yes, we do get treated differently, and having to re-establish hacker credentials time and again when people assume you work in marketing gets old. Funnily enough it's worse in Silicon Valley (so far in my experience) than back home in England. Still. There are things that you can do to make life easier, tricks that everyone from Margaret Thatcher to Queen Elizabeth, to female generals and CEOs have all employed. Your cofounders can help too, if you're having trouble because people ask them the same questions, by backing you up wholeheartedly (that could easily be an authority issue not a gender one). It's a rough road but having the chance of a woman read your YC app is really such a minor thing that it's not worth getting twisted up about.

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chrischen 17y ago

Personally I highly doubt their biases will be large enough to discredit, or even affect, the merit you show in your application.

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jlm382 17y ago

As a female in the tech industry, I actually don't think anyone has been sexist towards me - at least not in any way that has impacted my career or my desire to be in this industry. I feel that I've been judged by my merit, and Silicon Valley is actually at the forefront of trying to bring down this gender barrier. If anything, the stereotypical hacker guy wants to see more women in the industry. If 99% of the industry was female, wouldn't you be ecstatic to see a guy come in? If tech was a female dominated world, I might subconsciously look for MORE reasons to accept a male founder. Guys in tech enjoy the prospect of diversity and believe in women more than you give them credit for. Think about the plus side: having more male coders reading over your application might actually give you the upper-hand!

tianaco 17y ago
That would be nice. I also wonder if things are better on the West Coast. My experience has been on the East.

Major_Grooves 17y ago

I'm not sure if you've said elsewhere, but are you a solo applicant? You talk about "I". You don't mention what sex your co-founder is. If you are a solo applicant then being female is the least of your worries - solo applicants seldom (ever?) get accepted to YC. my co-founder (jlees) is XX. She was the face on our application video last time and we got invited over for an interview. I've no idea if Jessica was the one that looked at the video - to be honest the thought never crossed my mind that it might help us get to interview stage. Lose the chip from your shoulder and just concentrate on making a confident, compelling application. :)

tianaco 17y ago
No, we had 2 submissions - One headed by my partner with 4 founders, another headed by me with 2 founders. The other founders are all men. I am the first face on our application video. We did that to set us apart from the rest of the videos. I'm done with my applications, and confident that we made good applications for the people that we initially thought were going to review them... but not for unknown founders whose personal biases we are unaware of, but I can only assume based on my personal experiences with men in tech. Re: "chip on my shoulder" would you be offended if your peers wouldn't look you in the face? how about if they re-asked your business partners the same questions they asked you, only to get the same response?
- Major_Grooves 17y ago
  Sorry but if you've got breasts then you'll have to get used to guys looking at them. There was a recent study from NZ that found that 47% of men's first glances at a women were towards their breasts. It's just biology. Also take in to account your average male coder might not have seen any for a while - well it is male dominated (sorry - "got to wait for the liquidity event to have a liquidity event!")! ;) wrt to asking your co-founders the same questions, my guess is that you are so paranoid about the "not looking in the eyes" thing that you appear unconfident and unsure, so people look to your co-founders for confirmation.
  - tianaco 17y ago

Major_Grooves 17y ago

and another thing, I don't want to speak for jlees, but I've never got the impression she was treated as an "outsider". A novelty perhaps, but I think it wears off a second once she starts talking code. I'm a non-coder and I feel much more of an outsider. ;) if anyone really wants to feel like an outsider, try being a guy at a "women in tech" event.

gruseom 17y ago
I'm a non-coder and I feel much more of an insider You meant outsider, right? Seems to me that's what you meant... if so, you've made a very good point.
- Major_Grooves 17y ago
  sorry - you're correct. ^^Edited.

lleger 17y ago

Seriously? You're kidding, right?

edw519 17y ago

If your intent was to bring attention to yourself in the 11th hour, you may have succeeded. That attention, however, may not be what you wanted. As a male, I will not pretend to imagine what you go through because of our differences. I can only speak from my experience as a wimpy appearing introvert who has had earn everything I've ever had because hardly anyone has ever given me anything. I do not mean to offend and apologize ahead of time in case I do... To me, this entire thread comes off as whining and can only hurt you. Entrepreneurs must treat obstacles as speed bumps to conquer, not roadblocks to complain about. I suggest you redirect any energy you put into this thread into making your start-up better and put your trust into that effort. You'll probably have to make it so good that they can't ignore it. That's what everyone should do anyway. I wish you great success doing that.

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boredguy8 17y ago
I work with a few smart women and find that I constantly have to redirect attention and praise back to them when the two of us are working on a project together. If I had a dollar every time I said, "Thanks, but Sarah really championed that approach," or "Yeah, Sarah really pushed the vendors to meet our price point: we wouldn't have been under budget without her," I'd be a far richer person. "Wimpy male introvert" is hardly an exceptionally rare stereotype within IT, and 'not being given anything' is hardly the same as 'having things taken away', which I constantly see happening. And it's not like a few posts on news.yc is a massive time-sink that's 'energy' that needs to be redirected internally. Honestly, I'm so glad I'm not a woman in IT. Not only do you get crapped on, you get told not to complain when it happens.
tianaco 17y ago
No, this thread was a reaction to the announcement that was just revealed. I feel entitled to state my opinion after I spent so much time tailoring my application to a specific rubric. I'm sure you understand. The fact that my concern is controversial, but perhaps resonates with people, is why it got so much attention. HN exists as a forum for discussion and I raised a discussion that is germane to this announcement. A lot of other entrepreneurs have raised similar concerns in different ways... which is why this thread is so popular. I got under people's skin. But for you to call it "whiney" is really out of line. My concerns about this announcement as just as valid as other's people's as evidenced by the amount of upvotes.

jeremymims 17y ago

Wow. Y Combinator has funded female cofounders before and it is my understanding that most batches have had women in them. If anything, I think they'd almost be more willing to fund female cofounders because there isn't enough data out there to know if or how female cofounders in YC startups deviate from the success rate in a notable way. Since Y Combinator is about funding startups that are likely to succeed, this is an additional (and I think positive) way to test the methods of picking they've used in the past. Are YC founders as capable as YC at picking successful startups? I think this is a very interesting question. Y Combinator doesn't make any promises about who they're going to invest in. Trying to hack your way into YC based merely on the chance that Jessica will be reading your application is a bad idea. Calling bias before you've heard anything from YC seems like a particularly bad idea and risks you coming off as entitled. Spend your time improving your product. If your product is so specific to female interests that a male founder who's reading it doesn't know whether or not there will be a marketplace for it, I'd imagine he'd get a second opinion. If you are rejected, don't for one second think that it was because you were female. It would be for many many more reasons before that one. Remember, most men will get rejected by YC too. If your product is good, continue working on it. Y Combinator would be the first to admit that they don't always get it right and you do not need Y Combinator to have a successful startup. Disclosure: I was a cofounder in YCS08.

andreyf 17y ago
If anything, I think they'd almost be more willing to fund female cofounders because there isn't enough data out there to know if or how female cofounders in YC startups deviate from the success rate in a notable way. Being "more willing" to fund female cofounders will bias the question of how they deviate from the success rate, no?
- btilly 17y ago
  Treating women exactly equally means that you're almost to the point of giving them a preference. ;-)

wheels 17y ago

As I recall Jessica wasn't doing the primary phase of vetting applications anyway -- that was Trevor, Paul and Robert.

pg 17y ago

As I explained here, the alumni are going to read applications in addition to us, not instead of us: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=908585 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=908585 I'm not sure what you meant about a "one in three chance," but it sounds like you're misunderstanding how we read applications. We don't split them up. Also, there are 4 YC founders, not 3. The way it usually works is that Robert, Trevor and I (separately) read and rank the applications. Then Jessica looks at the top-ranked ones to see if there are any red flags we've overlooked.

tianaco 17y ago
My mistake. I spoke to a few YC alums and they told me that RTM wasn't really involved. Thank you for clarifying.
vivek_ganesh 17y ago
Paul, Would you tell us, which YC alumni is going to read the applications for us in advance,if we see any conflicts then, we delte our application. Thanks,
- pg 17y ago
  Software assigns them randomly. But if you want me to delete your application just let me know.

nadam 17y ago

So you have a little prejudice:) about: - successful applicants i.e. outside-of-the-box people may not have an idea about who are outside the box people. - most of these outside-of-the-box people are males an can be simply categorized as 'coders'. In fact I don't get your problem exactly. I suppose that there can be 2 cases, which is true? A. You are a 'female coder' and you think that 'male coders' have such a prejudice that a female coder cannot be as good as a 'male coder'. B. You think that you really are different from these male coders (perhaps you are not a coder), so even if these guys don't have prejudice about female coders, they think so differently from you, that they will not relate to your application. A. and B. are very different things, and I could not find out what your problem is from your description.

tianaco 17y ago
B. I'm not a coder. I feel that most of my accomplishments will not read as well to a coder as they won't identify with them. That's it. (I have technical co-founders)
- Major_Grooves 17y ago
  Well that's it then. It's just because you're a non-coder (presuming these negative experiences have been when speaking to coders rather than men in general). You're in the same boat as me! Try coming to a YC BBQ - that was a pretty tech-intense experience for me! You'll find a lot of the coders that you feel uncomfortable with, would feel quite uncomfortable at the type of events you revel in.

joez 17y ago

It's a thread like this that make me appreciate the ability to collapse threads. Tianaco, I don't want to argue the merits of your concerns but this is not the correct place to discuss it. Try sending PG an email? My immediate reactions were adjectives like baiting, hijacking and trolling. I don't mean to call you names, but this was just how this whole thread came off to me as. I don't appreciate that when I come back to this thread that the majority of the comments about the state of the female entrepreneur. I also believe YC is the exception instead of the rule.

kyro 17y ago

Your comment comes off as over-dramatic, and somewhat fake, almost like you're looking more for attention than justice. Nowhere on the app does it ask you for your sex. If you were so afraid of your application being viewed differently because you are a woman, hiding that fact on the app is as simple as using an alias and answering the questions without saying 'OH YEAH, AND I'M A WOMAN.' And if you think any of those at YC, whether pg and gang, or the alumni, would 'dock' you on points for being a woman and overlook your potential and that of your idea, you yourself are being sexist for assuming that a man would be so irrational and illogical for the sake of gender discrimination. And sorry for being harsh, but don't pull that 'they don't relate to me' crap. We're all aspiring entrepreneurs trying to make it out there with our ideas, connections, talents, etc, and any decent person would judge you on such. I don't need a pair of breasts and a rush of estrogen to relate to you. You're perpetuating the same gender gap you are criticizing others of exploiting. I know you're a woman, but man up.

tianaco 17y ago
kryo, that was a really nasty, disparaging, and insensitive thing to write. You can figure out that I'm a woman within 30 seconds of reading my application because of the organizations I've been involved with, what I studied, my accomplishments... oh, and of course the video. Second, it's less about being "docked" because I'm a woman, but more about evaluators not relating to my accomplishments because what they value doesn't line up with what I've accomplished. You can scoff at the "'they don't relate to me' crap", as you so eloquently put it. Or you can look at it for what it is: a problem in the tech world which results in a higher barrier to entry for women than it does for men. It's easier to ignore this as if it doesn't exist and feign umbrage to me stating my fears, than it is to actually examine what goes on in an open-minded and sensitive way. To relate to me you don't need a "a pair of breasts and a rush of estrogen" (how vulgar?!) but you do need a modicum of open-mindedness and sensitivity. Such characteristics you sorely lack. I'm not trying to perpetuate the gender gap, but to acknowledge that it does exist in tech. Via discussion and awareness, maybe one day it will cease to exist. That's what I really want. Men AND women evaluating me who see my potential as a businessperson even though I don't fit the mold of a traditional Silicon Valley tech entrepreneur. Unlike most women in technology that I've met who have encountered bias and discrimination due to their gender, I'm NOT afraid to talk about it. I'm happy I brought this up and am not at all sorry that it offended you.

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