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"One might argue that ancient Greece and Rome had better societies or at least equal to what we have today" In both Greece and Rome, slavery was legal and wome

"One might argue that ancient Greece and Rome had better societies or at least equal to what we have today" In both Greece and Rome, slavery was legal and women had next to no rights. Any society in the West today, with all its imperfections, is way better than anything in ancient Greece or Rome

blumkvist 12y ago
Yeah, I guess if your slaves are a million miles away and you don't see them, it will make you sleep better. Even pretend they don't exist.
- lake99 12y ago
  A million miles away? Farther than the moon? Sure. I'm confident they don't exist.
- barking 12y ago
  Good point, I guess you're referring to 3rd world sweatshops
- agumonkey 12y ago
  Something I've been thinking lately, western societies managed to divert our "bad" sides into opaque structures better than others.
- icebraining 12y ago
  http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/smokey.html http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/smokey.html
barking 12y ago
Are we better people than our grandparents and in their turn are they better than theirs? On average, are people becoming better people over time? I don't think that's a given and that's what society is. Whatever system is in place it's human nature to game it. While we can have all sorts of inclusivity built in to the rules, people will always find ways to sidestep them. I'd say, as a society we're no better or worse than the Romans on average, we just have more stuff. The proof of the pudding is that people in the most primitive of societies are just as happy if not happier than middle class westerners
- agumonkey 12y ago
  A weird reflex every generation has, is to provide a better life to their children. Even though most of the time, it's far from the case. Less developed countries send their kids to modern schools thinking a modern job will ensure a nice life, while I'm convinced that the parents life was full of human knowledge not taught anymore. Below a certain threshold, easier life doesn't mean better. Some rich folks don't let their children inherit for this reason.
weland 12y ago
> Any society in the West today, with all its imperfections, is way better than anything in ancient Greece or Rome The folks who assembled the computer you're using to write this are very likely to disagree. Any society in the West today, even if better than anything in ancient Greece or Rome, is closer to them than you think.
Yetanfou 12y ago
While the slavery issue (which eventually changed into servitude, which got changed into indenture, which - after many, many years - got changed into personal loans and mortgages...) is one of the less savoury aspects in Roman society, women actually did have clearly defined rights in the Roman age. They could own property, had the right to marry or divorce, the right to re-marry after a divorce or after being widowed, etc. The problem was that the patriarch had even more clearly defined rights which he could wield over anyone in the household, from his wife to his slaves. Women did not have the right to vote, nor the right to be voted into any office (other than some religious positions). Then again, these rights are a recent (less than 100 years old) addition to many if not most modern states...

blumkvist 12y ago

Yeah, I guess if your slaves are a million miles away and you don't see them, it will make you sleep better. Even pretend they don't exist.

lake99 12y ago
A million miles away? Farther than the moon? Sure. I'm confident they don't exist.
barking 12y ago
Good point, I guess you're referring to 3rd world sweatshops
agumonkey 12y ago
Something I've been thinking lately, western societies managed to divert our "bad" sides into opaque structures better than others.
icebraining 12y ago
http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/smokey.html http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/smokey.html

barking 12y ago

Are we better people than our grandparents and in their turn are they better than theirs? On average, are people becoming better people over time? I don't think that's a given and that's what society is. Whatever system is in place it's human nature to game it. While we can have all sorts of inclusivity built in to the rules, people will always find ways to sidestep them. I'd say, as a society we're no better or worse than the Romans on average, we just have more stuff. The proof of the pudding is that people in the most primitive of societies are just as happy if not happier than middle class westerners

agumonkey 12y ago
A weird reflex every generation has, is to provide a better life to their children. Even though most of the time, it's far from the case. Less developed countries send their kids to modern schools thinking a modern job will ensure a nice life, while I'm convinced that the parents life was full of human knowledge not taught anymore. Below a certain threshold, easier life doesn't mean better. Some rich folks don't let their children inherit for this reason.

weland 12y ago

> Any society in the West today, with all its imperfections, is way better than anything in ancient Greece or Rome The folks who assembled the computer you're using to write this are very likely to disagree. Any society in the West today, even if better than anything in ancient Greece or Rome, is closer to them than you think.

Yetanfou 12y ago

While the slavery issue (which eventually changed into servitude, which got changed into indenture, which - after many, many years - got changed into personal loans and mortgages...) is one of the less savoury aspects in Roman society, women actually did have clearly defined rights in the Roman age. They could own property, had the right to marry or divorce, the right to re-marry after a divorce or after being widowed, etc. The problem was that the patriarch had even more clearly defined rights which he could wield over anyone in the household, from his wife to his slaves. Women did not have the right to vote, nor the right to be voted into any office (other than some religious positions). Then again, these rights are a recent (less than 100 years old) addition to many if not most modern states...