6 ms·

Uh oh. Your post sounds a little...extreme. Schools aren't evil. Bear in mind the effect your values are really having on your son. Keep in mind, too, the grea

Uh oh. Your post sounds a little...extreme. Schools aren't evil. Bear in mind the effect your values are really having on your son. Keep in mind, too, the great social development he's missing out on.

aedocw 12y ago
Assuming most homeschooled kids are also involved in their local homeschool community and are regularly interacting with other kids of different ages as well as adults, I'm curious what you are referring to here. Could you expand on what "great social development" homeschooled kids are deprived of?
- jff 12y ago
  The opportunity to meet children from families that aren't either white & well off or white & religious?
  - PaulHoule 12y ago
    I can say that our local elementary school is pretty white, but not necessarily well off. Homeschoolers in my area, if they are religious, are pagans. I know some homeschoolers who live in another state who are seriously Christian (i.e. dad is a prof at a religious school) but not at all right wing.
- SL61 12y ago
  I'm currently homeschooled (senior year) and I can say it really depends on the area. In my area, homeschoolers are almost all conservative Christians who are very isolated from every other demographic. There are enough of them to form large groups, so they're not being completely deprived of social life, but they're being deprived of exposure to people who aren't like them. They learn other viewpoints as caricatures and chances are they'll go off to Bible school and never truly be exposed to other viewpoints in their life. Other areas aren't so unfortunate - usually a closely knit group of religiously homeschooled teenagers will end up just like a normal high school class - rebelling against their parents and growing up to be normal people. Larger cities have strong non-religious homeschool communities and the kids there are probably growing up fine (though I don't personally know anyone in one of those groups). I do know some homeschoolers who really do just sit in their room all day and never meet with other people their age. I was one for a while. Usually in that case there's more at fault than just being homeschooled, like Asperger's or depression that's not properly dealt with. I've probably digressed from your question a bit but it's hard to keep myself from rambling when I'm almost always the only person in these discussions who has actually been a homeschooler. :P (Edit: After reading more of the thread it looks like I'm not alone here!) Personally, I hang out with my friends from when I went to public school. It would be dreadful if I only knew the other homeschoolers in my area.
  - Domenic_S 12y ago
    > they're being deprived of exposure to people who aren't like them. I was homeschooled and also attended both private and public schools so I have some perspective on this point: 1) "Exposure to people who aren't like you" can be achieved in all sorts of ways, and you have to be really intentional about why you want it. In other words, ask "why is it important?" and then formulate a plan from there. Eg., if it's because you want to help the less-fortunate, go volunteer or go on a missions trip. Going to "real" school doesn't count, because 2) schools are the epitome of segregation. Band kids over here. Drama kids over there. Jocks to the left, dorks to the right. Race A in this corner, race B in that corner. Watch any group of kids walking home after school and note the homogeneity. Part of that is because that's how the kids naturally separate, and part of that is because 3) schools are populated by the kids who live in the neighborhoods they serve. Naturally, that population is not usually diverse. In the case that the neighborhood is ethnically diverse, it's probably not economically diverse. College is better, but people still tend to fall into groups of people who are like them in some way, whether it's clubs, sports, Greek life, etc.
zimbu668 12y ago
> the great social development he's missing out on. Don't worry, we're going to hire a tutor so they know how to properly ostracize the weak and the non-conformists.
- pauleastlund 12y ago
  Spot on. The big concern I had before we decided to homeschool was the lack of social development, but when I really thought through all of my "social development" in grade school it was learning to survive in a really nasty Lord-of-the-Flies environment where a lot of kids without well-developed moral compasses were competing for the admiration and respect of a lot of other kids without well-developed moral compasses, and we all learned proper American values like "our parents and other adults are lame" and "we should look down on people in lower grades than us." "Social development" for me was in late high school and college where I reacclimated to an environment where people weren't looking to score social points by putting one another down. Why would I want my kids to take that long detour through dysfunction?
guard-of-terra 12y ago
"Schools aren't evil" They often are. For a great deal of students, it's a place of unhappiness. I'm on the geeky side, and when I ask my friends (girls more often than not) whether they liked school, they universally tell me it wasn't good for them. So you can't say that. You want that to be true; that is supposed to be true; but it is not.
- goatforce5 12y ago
  Going to the dentist isn't fun, but it's necessary. If you visit often enough and listen to what they say, it should become a little easier as you go along.
  - gress 12y ago
    School may be necessary, but bad schools are not.
  - guard-of-terra 12y ago
    Dentists actively try to make the experience less rough, make you feel more in control. At least good ones do, and I have freedom (and sense) to not go to bad ones.
  - facepalm 12y ago
    Try going to the dentist every day, for 6 hours per day, for twelve years straight.
- Zancarius 12y ago
  > They often are. For a great deal of students, it's a place of unhappiness. I know this is anecdotal, but I'll pitch in with another data point: I hated it. High school (and to an extent part of my junior high experience) felt like an absolute waste of time. It was a mix of two negative experiences: 1) avoiding uncomfortable interactions with students who hated those like me because we were too nerdy/pale/learning-focused/etc. or 2) hoping we wouldn't get stuck with one of a half-dozen or so awful teachers [1]. I wish I were exaggerating. On a positive note, those four years were tempered by the three or four teachers I deeply respected and admired. Sadly, such positive emotions were a rare retreat from the anti-authoritarian and anti-educational atmosphere present in that district. When I went to college, I discovered that scholastic endeavors needn't be complicated with stupid adolescent politics. It was a completely different experience, not the least because I was treated like a responsible adult for the first time in my life by those who were directed to instruct. In retrospect, if I should ever have children of my own, I don't think I could bring myself to put them through public school. I realize it depends on the district, but my own experiences were so dramatically negative that it's an option I won't willingly accept. [1] I had a math teacher my freshman year who regularly complained that her students went on more dates than she did. During the warmer months, she'd often take us outside so she could nap in the sun while we were supposed to work on whatever assignment she'd given us. About halfway through the year, she was reigned in somewhat because this activity was reported by concerned parents when it was discovered that many of the students were leaving early (conveniently, it was also the last period of the day). She didn't come back the following year. I also had a teacher my senior year who claimed he was a former drill sergeant and treated us in a manner analogous to recruits. He also started us off with negative grades to teach us some absurd lesson about the importance of always improving. Part of his grading regimen included measuring the margins of our papers to ensure we followed instructions, subtracting 50 points for each margin that wasn't exactly 1" from the edge of the paper. And that was before he graded the content.
ChuckMcM 12y ago
I'm going to call this one out as it comes up all the time in connection with the concept of "home schooling" - Keep in mind, too, the great social development he's missing out on. There are multiple problems with this statement. First, it assumes that the "social development" kids get in school is somehow "better" than the social development they get outside of school. Second is a pervasive (and wrong) meme that "home schooling" is some kid sitting at a desk in their house listening while their parent drones on and on about some subject. My experience home schooling my three girls was that skipping "the middle school experience" was the envy of all their peers in "regular" school. And the social experiences they got with the community of students that were being home schooled were very effective at teaching good social interaction skills. In California at least you still need to register your child with an appropriate school of record which both reports to the state on educational status "in school" vs "not in school" and provide quarterly report cards for their students. Had it been a traditional middle school it would have been the largest one in the area. This because the Bay Area has a very diverse and effective community of "home schooling" students. The Bay Area is perhaps asymptomatic in this regard but programs like the Stanford EPGY math system, the Riekes nature studies home school programs, places like the Institute for Excellence in Writing, Etc. My kids were in social groups through out their home school experience (3rd - 8th for the longest one) Those friendships are at least as strong as any developed "in school." There are a lot of things you can say about home schooling, but generally "missing out on social development" isn't one of them. [1] https://giftedandtalented.com/ https://giftedandtalented.com/ -- Formerly the Stanford EPGY program. [2] http://riekes.org/nature-awareness/homeschool-programs/ http://riekes.org/nature-awareness/homeschool-programs/ [3] http://iew.com/ http://iew.com/
- magic_beans 12y ago
  I guess I didn't consider that at all. I must say my only experience with home-schooled kids was that "weird kid" from high school who happened to have been home-schooled. I agree that conventional schooling is not for everyone, and middle school is a particularly brutal time for young girls. Lord knows I'm still scarred from my experiences during that time. You are your child's parent, and the parent knows best. Thanks for the citations, too -- I'll read up. Cheers!
PaulHoule 12y ago
Some people get along fine in school but some people don't. I knew how to read at 3.5 yrs, wrecked my vision, wore glasses, was "different" and had poor social skills. For me going to the public school was a war zone as I became a target for intense bullying. I have suffered from social phobia, anxiety and all sorts of BS from this that I have somewhat overcome. I know I had some role in this happening because these problems followed me around, but I did spend one year in a private school that had a "zero tolerance" for bullying policy and I had a much better time even had friends for the first time in my life. I was told by adults again and again to "ignore it" and they did not understand that the level of provocation would escalate and escalate. Frankly I don't know if is a matter of victims are people who are below a certain threshold of skills or just people who are in the bottom 10%. I have read the literature on the subject even talked to the people who wrote it and there is no psychosocial intervention for bullies or victims that works. What does work is a "zero tolerance" policy across the organization for this behavior, but public schools won't do this, not until one of them gets sued into bankruptcy and the teachers lose their pensions. I do know now that I am pretty good at "ignoring it" and I tend to be bombproof in crazy situations.
- gress 12y ago
  When there is bullying, anything other than a zero tolerance policy amounts to the school supporting the bullies. The reason for this is that the school is what forces the victim into contact with the bullies, and limits the victims strategies for handling them.
facepalm 12y ago
How are schools not evil? They are compulsory. That's pretty evil in my book - like putting people in jail, except they didn't commit a crime. Maybe they are not all the same. But I worry that they won't try to teach my kids skills, they will try to teach them obedience and fitting in. I don't want that.

aedocw 12y ago

Assuming most homeschooled kids are also involved in their local homeschool community and are regularly interacting with other kids of different ages as well as adults, I'm curious what you are referring to here. Could you expand on what "great social development" homeschooled kids are deprived of?

jff 12y ago
The opportunity to meet children from families that aren't either white & well off or white & religious?
- PaulHoule 12y ago
  I can say that our local elementary school is pretty white, but not necessarily well off. Homeschoolers in my area, if they are religious, are pagans. I know some homeschoolers who live in another state who are seriously Christian (i.e. dad is a prof at a religious school) but not at all right wing.
SL61 12y ago
I'm currently homeschooled (senior year) and I can say it really depends on the area. In my area, homeschoolers are almost all conservative Christians who are very isolated from every other demographic. There are enough of them to form large groups, so they're not being completely deprived of social life, but they're being deprived of exposure to people who aren't like them. They learn other viewpoints as caricatures and chances are they'll go off to Bible school and never truly be exposed to other viewpoints in their life. Other areas aren't so unfortunate - usually a closely knit group of religiously homeschooled teenagers will end up just like a normal high school class - rebelling against their parents and growing up to be normal people. Larger cities have strong non-religious homeschool communities and the kids there are probably growing up fine (though I don't personally know anyone in one of those groups). I do know some homeschoolers who really do just sit in their room all day and never meet with other people their age. I was one for a while. Usually in that case there's more at fault than just being homeschooled, like Asperger's or depression that's not properly dealt with. I've probably digressed from your question a bit but it's hard to keep myself from rambling when I'm almost always the only person in these discussions who has actually been a homeschooler. :P (Edit: After reading more of the thread it looks like I'm not alone here!) Personally, I hang out with my friends from when I went to public school. It would be dreadful if I only knew the other homeschoolers in my area.
- Domenic_S 12y ago
  > they're being deprived of exposure to people who aren't like them. I was homeschooled and also attended both private and public schools so I have some perspective on this point: 1) "Exposure to people who aren't like you" can be achieved in all sorts of ways, and you have to be really intentional about why you want it. In other words, ask "why is it important?" and then formulate a plan from there. Eg., if it's because you want to help the less-fortunate, go volunteer or go on a missions trip. Going to "real" school doesn't count, because 2) schools are the epitome of segregation. Band kids over here. Drama kids over there. Jocks to the left, dorks to the right. Race A in this corner, race B in that corner. Watch any group of kids walking home after school and note the homogeneity. Part of that is because that's how the kids naturally separate, and part of that is because 3) schools are populated by the kids who live in the neighborhoods they serve. Naturally, that population is not usually diverse. In the case that the neighborhood is ethnically diverse, it's probably not economically diverse. College is better, but people still tend to fall into groups of people who are like them in some way, whether it's clubs, sports, Greek life, etc.

zimbu668 12y ago

> the great social development he's missing out on. Don't worry, we're going to hire a tutor so they know how to properly ostracize the weak and the non-conformists.

pauleastlund 12y ago
Spot on. The big concern I had before we decided to homeschool was the lack of social development, but when I really thought through all of my "social development" in grade school it was learning to survive in a really nasty Lord-of-the-Flies environment where a lot of kids without well-developed moral compasses were competing for the admiration and respect of a lot of other kids without well-developed moral compasses, and we all learned proper American values like "our parents and other adults are lame" and "we should look down on people in lower grades than us." "Social development" for me was in late high school and college where I reacclimated to an environment where people weren't looking to score social points by putting one another down. Why would I want my kids to take that long detour through dysfunction?

guard-of-terra 12y ago

"Schools aren't evil" They often are. For a great deal of students, it's a place of unhappiness. I'm on the geeky side, and when I ask my friends (girls more often than not) whether they liked school, they universally tell me it wasn't good for them. So you can't say that. You want that to be true; that is supposed to be true; but it is not.

goatforce5 12y ago
Going to the dentist isn't fun, but it's necessary. If you visit often enough and listen to what they say, it should become a little easier as you go along.
- gress 12y ago
  School may be necessary, but bad schools are not.
- guard-of-terra 12y ago
  Dentists actively try to make the experience less rough, make you feel more in control. At least good ones do, and I have freedom (and sense) to not go to bad ones.
- facepalm 12y ago
  Try going to the dentist every day, for 6 hours per day, for twelve years straight.
Zancarius 12y ago
> They often are. For a great deal of students, it's a place of unhappiness. I know this is anecdotal, but I'll pitch in with another data point: I hated it. High school (and to an extent part of my junior high experience) felt like an absolute waste of time. It was a mix of two negative experiences: 1) avoiding uncomfortable interactions with students who hated those like me because we were too nerdy/pale/learning-focused/etc. or 2) hoping we wouldn't get stuck with one of a half-dozen or so awful teachers [1]. I wish I were exaggerating. On a positive note, those four years were tempered by the three or four teachers I deeply respected and admired. Sadly, such positive emotions were a rare retreat from the anti-authoritarian and anti-educational atmosphere present in that district. When I went to college, I discovered that scholastic endeavors needn't be complicated with stupid adolescent politics. It was a completely different experience, not the least because I was treated like a responsible adult for the first time in my life by those who were directed to instruct. In retrospect, if I should ever have children of my own, I don't think I could bring myself to put them through public school. I realize it depends on the district, but my own experiences were so dramatically negative that it's an option I won't willingly accept. [1] I had a math teacher my freshman year who regularly complained that her students went on more dates than she did. During the warmer months, she'd often take us outside so she could nap in the sun while we were supposed to work on whatever assignment she'd given us. About halfway through the year, she was reigned in somewhat because this activity was reported by concerned parents when it was discovered that many of the students were leaving early (conveniently, it was also the last period of the day). She didn't come back the following year. I also had a teacher my senior year who claimed he was a former drill sergeant and treated us in a manner analogous to recruits. He also started us off with negative grades to teach us some absurd lesson about the importance of always improving. Part of his grading regimen included measuring the margins of our papers to ensure we followed instructions, subtracting 50 points for each margin that wasn't exactly 1" from the edge of the paper. And that was before he graded the content.

ChuckMcM 12y ago

I'm going to call this one out as it comes up all the time in connection with the concept of "home schooling" - Keep in mind, too, the great social development he's missing out on. There are multiple problems with this statement. First, it assumes that the "social development" kids get in school is somehow "better" than the social development they get outside of school. Second is a pervasive (and wrong) meme that "home schooling" is some kid sitting at a desk in their house listening while their parent drones on and on about some subject. My experience home schooling my three girls was that skipping "the middle school experience" was the envy of all their peers in "regular" school. And the social experiences they got with the community of students that were being home schooled were very effective at teaching good social interaction skills. In California at least you still need to register your child with an appropriate school of record which both reports to the state on educational status "in school" vs "not in school" and provide quarterly report cards for their students. Had it been a traditional middle school it would have been the largest one in the area. This because the Bay Area has a very diverse and effective community of "home schooling" students. The Bay Area is perhaps asymptomatic in this regard but programs like the Stanford EPGY math system, the Riekes nature studies home school programs, places like the Institute for Excellence in Writing, Etc. My kids were in social groups through out their home school experience (3rd - 8th for the longest one) Those friendships are at least as strong as any developed "in school." There are a lot of things you can say about home schooling, but generally "missing out on social development" isn't one of them. [1] https://giftedandtalented.com/ https://giftedandtalented.com/ -- Formerly the Stanford EPGY program. [2] http://riekes.org/nature-awareness/homeschool-programs/ http://riekes.org/nature-awareness/homeschool-programs/ [3] http://iew.com/ http://iew.com/

magic_beans 12y ago
I guess I didn't consider that at all. I must say my only experience with home-schooled kids was that "weird kid" from high school who happened to have been home-schooled. I agree that conventional schooling is not for everyone, and middle school is a particularly brutal time for young girls. Lord knows I'm still scarred from my experiences during that time. You are your child's parent, and the parent knows best. Thanks for the citations, too -- I'll read up. Cheers!

PaulHoule 12y ago

Some people get along fine in school but some people don't. I knew how to read at 3.5 yrs, wrecked my vision, wore glasses, was "different" and had poor social skills. For me going to the public school was a war zone as I became a target for intense bullying. I have suffered from social phobia, anxiety and all sorts of BS from this that I have somewhat overcome. I know I had some role in this happening because these problems followed me around, but I did spend one year in a private school that had a "zero tolerance" for bullying policy and I had a much better time even had friends for the first time in my life. I was told by adults again and again to "ignore it" and they did not understand that the level of provocation would escalate and escalate. Frankly I don't know if is a matter of victims are people who are below a certain threshold of skills or just people who are in the bottom 10%. I have read the literature on the subject even talked to the people who wrote it and there is no psychosocial intervention for bullies or victims that works. What does work is a "zero tolerance" policy across the organization for this behavior, but public schools won't do this, not until one of them gets sued into bankruptcy and the teachers lose their pensions. I do know now that I am pretty good at "ignoring it" and I tend to be bombproof in crazy situations.

gress 12y ago
When there is bullying, anything other than a zero tolerance policy amounts to the school supporting the bullies. The reason for this is that the school is what forces the victim into contact with the bullies, and limits the victims strategies for handling them.

facepalm 12y ago

How are schools not evil? They are compulsory. That's pretty evil in my book - like putting people in jail, except they didn't commit a crime. Maybe they are not all the same. But I worry that they won't try to teach my kids skills, they will try to teach them obedience and fitting in. I don't want that.