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I realize the web has a huge headstart on anything else, but what prevents someone (or us, as a community) form creating application containers that are not web

I realize the web has a huge headstart on anything else, but what prevents someone (or us, as a community) form creating application containers that are not web browsers. Why not something like a "Python Box" where you can download and run applications written by developers in Python, and where the UI is rendered asynchronously in just the ways people say they want it (at least in this thread). I know that on day one there won't be anyone on your "Python Web" or whatever alternative browsing box you make, but if its nice to developers, and if it really does give users a better experience, then eventually we'll see people use it ... just like any good idea takes root in the long term. I know the web is already here, and it makes a lot of sense to leverage the fast V8 engines we already have pre-installed on all our users' desktops and devices, but I am really surprised that we haven't seen any alternatives in the two decades since we've figured out that Javascript/CSS/HTML really suck for a whole class of applications. I suppose you could say the JVM was one attempt to do this ... but the JVM was proprietary and it wasn't properly marketed to end users. The app box I'm talking about should be something that users feel they have to download because it will be an infinite amount of fun. Security is a huge problem I know. But surely we can figure out something using containers/VMs etc. to airlock all the random code that will be downloaded into the box by users.

Kalium 12y ago
Please don't try to handwave away security like that. It's much, much harder than it sounds and there still aren't great solutions to safe sandboxing. That said, what you're describing is native applications.
aikah 12y ago
There will be no support for any alternative here,it's over. Vendors will never agree on what would be the right solution. Furthermore. There is already a solution: bypassing the dom and using canvas/webgl for the UI, and whatever language you want for the rest.If you want to use Python or Java, i'm sure you'll find an implementation that compiles to Js. The future imho is clearly C/C++ and EMSCRIPTEM with canvas/Webgl which would allow gpu acceleration for the UI and asmjs optimisation for the code. Which is totally ironic I must say. Using a low level language on a "high level" plateform.
nostrademons 12y ago
There's nothing stopping you, besides adoption. Typically when you launch a new application platform, you need to bring the users on board first. It's not enough to provide a good developer experience: you need to provide a way for those developers to support their livelihood, which means that there need to be enough users that some fraction of them will pay money for software (or be worth money to advertisers as eyeballs). Pretty much all successful platforms start as consumer products first. The PC was first a hobbyist curiosity, then a gaming console, then a tool for small businesses with Visicalc and Word Processing, and only became large enough to create mainstream software markets in the 80s, ~5-10 years after introduction. The web was initially a tool for scientists to share research, then a publishing platform for kids to create fansites, then became a large e-commerce & application platform. The iPhone started out as a phone, then a PDA, then got applications about a year or so later.
eclipxe 12y ago
It's called a native application...
Touche 12y ago
The only reason that matters: Mobile. Your new format has to be accepted by Apple and Google at minimum. So good luck with that.
Retric 12y ago
In many ways this is / was flash or Java Applets. Apple is not going to let you run on iOS, but other than that you can be low level and cross platform with a plugin fairly easily. The issue is it would take 10’s of millions of dollars’ worth of developer time and there is few obvious revenue streams to support it. Sure, open source sounds great but this is kind of tedious low level cross platform work is not going to be particularly fun or interesting to most developers.
kazagistar 12y ago
I know, why not make it easier to use this container (just until everyone transitions) by embedding it into HTML with, say, a plugin? Oh, right, thats Java, Flash, Silverlight, Unity Player, etc etc.

Kalium 12y ago

Please don't try to handwave away security like that. It's much, much harder than it sounds and there still aren't great solutions to safe sandboxing. That said, what you're describing is native applications.

aikah 12y ago

There will be no support for any alternative here,it's over. Vendors will never agree on what would be the right solution. Furthermore. There is already a solution: bypassing the dom and using canvas/webgl for the UI, and whatever language you want for the rest.If you want to use Python or Java, i'm sure you'll find an implementation that compiles to Js. The future imho is clearly C/C++ and EMSCRIPTEM with canvas/Webgl which would allow gpu acceleration for the UI and asmjs optimisation for the code. Which is totally ironic I must say. Using a low level language on a "high level" plateform.

nostrademons 12y ago

There's nothing stopping you, besides adoption. Typically when you launch a new application platform, you need to bring the users on board first. It's not enough to provide a good developer experience: you need to provide a way for those developers to support their livelihood, which means that there need to be enough users that some fraction of them will pay money for software (or be worth money to advertisers as eyeballs). Pretty much all successful platforms start as consumer products first. The PC was first a hobbyist curiosity, then a gaming console, then a tool for small businesses with Visicalc and Word Processing, and only became large enough to create mainstream software markets in the 80s, ~5-10 years after introduction. The web was initially a tool for scientists to share research, then a publishing platform for kids to create fansites, then became a large e-commerce & application platform. The iPhone started out as a phone, then a PDA, then got applications about a year or so later.

eclipxe 12y ago

It's called a native application...

Touche 12y ago

The only reason that matters: Mobile. Your new format has to be accepted by Apple and Google at minimum. So good luck with that.

Retric 12y ago

In many ways this is / was flash or Java Applets. Apple is not going to let you run on iOS, but other than that you can be low level and cross platform with a plugin fairly easily. The issue is it would take 10’s of millions of dollars’ worth of developer time and there is few obvious revenue streams to support it. Sure, open source sounds great but this is kind of tedious low level cross platform work is not going to be particularly fun or interesting to most developers.

kazagistar 12y ago

I know, why not make it easier to use this container (just until everyone transitions) by embedding it into HTML with, say, a plugin? Oh, right, thats Java, Flash, Silverlight, Unity Player, etc etc.