7 ms·

Quiet Linear Mechanical Keyboard Switch Designed by the Open Steno Project

54 points by robertfw 12y ago

busterarm 12y ago
So it's an ALPS/Matias switch. Of which there already exist quiet versions. Why do you want money again? The claim that it's easier to get Custom Key Caps for these is an absolute joke. There is very little available in the market for Alps style keycaps vs Cherry MX which is ubiquitous. Injection molding shops would have to have tooling available to make these keycaps. Most of them don't. That's what makes getting custom keys easy or hard, not the mounting shape. I don't even think you can get them in PBT anymore unless you pop them off an SGI Granite keyboard or older Apple keyboards (or with a Japanese layout). Cherry MX Reds are also not out of wide circulation at all. Reds and Browns are their most popular switch right now! These comparisons are totally disingenuous. Not to mention Matias switches are super wobbly...Have fun doing those sticker mods.
- ChuckMcM 12y ago
  This and the other Cherry comment capture my cynicism as well. And the reason I'm cynical about it is that they story they offer doesn't seem to make sense to anyone who has purchased key switches for projects. So lets break it down. $50 donation gets you 150 switches, they are looking to raise $1000. That is twenty $50 chunks, or 3,000 switches. So what they are really saying is that our vendor has a minimum order quantity (MOQ) of 3,000 switches, and if you all buy some, together we'll get switches and you'll get switches. That at least would be an honest narrative. And hey its helping the Open Steno project so its got that going for it.
  - busterarm 12y ago
    The sad thing is, if they went on GeekHack or Deskthority, they might just be able to find 20 people willing to group buy Alps switches. Might.
  - howardbeware 12y ago
    The economics of this project aren't based on funding the entire MOQ, which is much more than 3,000 switches. We'll be using many of the switches for our own project, but think there will be plenty left over. The $1,000 funding goal is the amount that makes it worth going through the effort to sort, package, ship, and other logistics. I'll make this clearer on the campaign page. Thanks for the feedback!
    - ChuckMcM 12y ago
      That is awesome Howard. If I had a use for 150 switches I would certainly consider contributing. Something else you might add to this page which may help would be an STL file that could be 3D printed for a keycap. Looking at what is provided I don't think there is quite enough information to make one and you would definitely want to test fit it for validation before releasing something like that but it would give folks most everything they needed for building a custom keyboard.
      - busterarm 12y ago
        With them using a totally custom shape keycap, a standard keycap would be too far outside the scope for it to be worth their time. No two makes of Alps keyboard have ever used the same stabilizers I think. Designing that I think would be a pretty big job and Matias has a standard layout for their own boards already (as long as you use Macs).
      - howardbeware 12y ago
        We plan releasing the source files for all custom hardware, including key caps, that we're designing and making for our own keyboard. We have prototypes that we're mostly happy with, but haven't yet nailed down the exact dimensions. Also, our files are in the form that a CNC mill could understand, but as far as I know not suitable yet for a 3D printer. I really like that idea, though, and will keep it in mind for when we do offer our keyboard.
- bryanlarsen 12y ago
  By custom key cap they mean custom shape. Not custom label. For cherry that will cost you $50k to make the mold. Alps you can mill yourself out of wood.
  - howardbeware 12y ago
    I'm one of the people behind this project. Yes, the custom key shapes + low activation force are the primary reason we're interested in creating these key switches.
- howardbeware 12y ago
  There are quiet versions of Matias switches, but they are all clicky, which we explicitly don't want because even quiet clicky switches are loud and because of the associated fatigue. Our switch is quiet and non-clicky, which up until now hasn't existed in the Matias line. I'm not sure I understand your question about wanting money. As much as it would be great to give them away for free, the reality is that it cost us money to produce them and it will cost us money to ship them. We're running this campaign in order to simplify the logistics of offering our extra keys to other people. Regarding custom key caps, another commentator was correct in saying that we're milling entirely custom shapes from raw materials (aluminum in our case). As for the circulation of Cherry MX Reds, I could only find them available in small quantities for what seemed to be very high prices, when I could find them in stock at all. The Cherry MX is a great line of switches, but Cherry is doing a poor job of helping people (well, me at least) make new products. I haven't noticed the Matias switches being super wobbly, but I also don't have a full keyboard built yet. I'll keep an eye out for this.
TrainedMonkey 12y ago
For $50 you can get a bag of 150 keys. That comes out to $0.33 cents per switch which is really close to their estimated unit price without shipping of $0.30.
- busterarm 12y ago
  Because of the low popularity of ALPS keycaps, the cost and MOQ of the caps themselves are significantly higher. This is the more expensive way to go.
  - howardbeware 12y ago
    Since we're manufacturing the key caps ourselves, it's actually a much cheaper way to go for us.
worklogin 12y ago
I've owned a Cherry MX Red keyboard for a few years, and while I like the keyboard itself, I wish I had browns. The tactile feedback of a keypress is really needed for error-resistant typing.
- ashmud 12y ago
  For me, the tactile feedback is what allows me to not bottom out when typing. I feel like a can allow myself to type more lightly on browns than reds.
leetrout 12y ago
I just picked received the CODE Keyboard with the green switches yesterday and while I was swapping some caps I wondered why they didn't just make the housing clear for the backlighting. This looks cool!
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
pdknsk 12y ago
Cherry does have clear housing. http://www.cherry.de/cid/keymodules_CHERRY_MX1A-LxxA_B.htm http://www.cherry.de/cid/keymodules_CHERRY_MX1A-LxxA_B.htm And the following claim seems a bit dubious to me. > The other contact, pictured above, is gold-plated only on the small area that will actually physically touch the other contact. The reason for this is simply that the process of gold plating weakens the metal being plated, which would reduce the longevity of the key switch.
- busterarm 12y ago
  I'm almost certain they originally wanted Cherry Reds for this project but couldn't get their order qty filled by Cherry either due to lack of availability (they're very popular right now) or there being a high MOQ (Cherry's MOQs are super-duper high). If they were really serious about ultra-low activation force, Topre has 30g switches available (not that they could have negotiated that contract), but that's unusably low, IMO. The project may be "open" but they've gone with a key type that's only still supported by one manufacturer...
  - howardbeware 12y ago
    We evaluated Cherry Reds for the project, but there were several things wrong with them. In order of our priorities: 1. It's very difficult/expensive to make custom key caps that mount to Cherry MX stems. By custom key cap, I mean a completely new shape, like this: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-g_Bi0FseNUk/VGBKMdshu-I/AAAAAAAAAeg/i2PoOoql6zU/s1600/cnc-keys-complete.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-g_Bi0FseNUk/VGBKMdshu-I/AAAAAAAAAe... We actually did come up with a method for doing this with Cherry MX switches, but the cost was prohibitive. I'll add more detail on the campaign page to make this clear. 2. The actuation force of Cherry MX Reds was just a bit too high. We're making a stenotype keyboard, which should have a very light touch. The Cherry MX Red might have been marginally acceptable, but we're much happier with the lower actuation force of our switch. 3. As you pointed out, the availability of Cherry MX Reds isn't great. 4. The price of Cherry MX Reds is much higher. Regarding the Topre switches, I agree that 30g is almost too low. Also, the mounting post for the Topre switches seemed challenging from the perspective of creating custom key caps, though we didn't actually try. As for the openness of the project and there being only one manufacturer, is your concern about availability, control of the IP, or something else?
rl3 12y ago
This seems like it might be useful in defending against acoustic side-channel attacks.

54 points by robertfw 12y ago

So it's an ALPS/Matias switch. Of which there already exist quiet versions. Why do you want money again? The claim that it's easier to get Custom Key Caps for these is an absolute joke. There is very little available in the market for Alps style keycaps vs Cherry MX which is ubiquitous. Injection molding shops would have to have tooling available to make these keycaps. Most of them don't. That's what makes getting custom keys easy or hard, not the mounting shape. I don't even think you can get them in PBT anymore unless you pop them off an SGI Granite keyboard or older Apple keyboards (or with a Japanese layout). Cherry MX Reds are also not out of wide circulation at all. Reds and Browns are their most popular switch right now! These comparisons are totally disingenuous. Not to mention Matias switches are super wobbly...Have fun doing those sticker mods.

ChuckMcM 12y ago
This and the other Cherry comment capture my cynicism as well. And the reason I'm cynical about it is that they story they offer doesn't seem to make sense to anyone who has purchased key switches for projects. So lets break it down. $50 donation gets you 150 switches, they are looking to raise $1000. That is twenty $50 chunks, or 3,000 switches. So what they are really saying is that our vendor has a minimum order quantity (MOQ) of 3,000 switches, and if you all buy some, together we'll get switches and you'll get switches. That at least would be an honest narrative. And hey its helping the Open Steno project so its got that going for it.
- busterarm 12y ago
  The sad thing is, if they went on GeekHack or Deskthority, they might just be able to find 20 people willing to group buy Alps switches. Might.
- howardbeware 12y ago
  The economics of this project aren't based on funding the entire MOQ, which is much more than 3,000 switches. We'll be using many of the switches for our own project, but think there will be plenty left over. The $1,000 funding goal is the amount that makes it worth going through the effort to sort, package, ship, and other logistics. I'll make this clearer on the campaign page. Thanks for the feedback!
  - ChuckMcM 12y ago
    That is awesome Howard. If I had a use for 150 switches I would certainly consider contributing. Something else you might add to this page which may help would be an STL file that could be 3D printed for a keycap. Looking at what is provided I don't think there is quite enough information to make one and you would definitely want to test fit it for validation before releasing something like that but it would give folks most everything they needed for building a custom keyboard.
    - busterarm 12y ago
      With them using a totally custom shape keycap, a standard keycap would be too far outside the scope for it to be worth their time. No two makes of Alps keyboard have ever used the same stabilizers I think. Designing that I think would be a pretty big job and Matias has a standard layout for their own boards already (as long as you use Macs).
    - howardbeware 12y ago
      We plan releasing the source files for all custom hardware, including key caps, that we're designing and making for our own keyboard. We have prototypes that we're mostly happy with, but haven't yet nailed down the exact dimensions. Also, our files are in the form that a CNC mill could understand, but as far as I know not suitable yet for a 3D printer. I really like that idea, though, and will keep it in mind for when we do offer our keyboard.
bryanlarsen 12y ago
By custom key cap they mean custom shape. Not custom label. For cherry that will cost you $50k to make the mold. Alps you can mill yourself out of wood.
- howardbeware 12y ago
  I'm one of the people behind this project. Yes, the custom key shapes + low activation force are the primary reason we're interested in creating these key switches.
howardbeware 12y ago
There are quiet versions of Matias switches, but they are all clicky, which we explicitly don't want because even quiet clicky switches are loud and because of the associated fatigue. Our switch is quiet and non-clicky, which up until now hasn't existed in the Matias line. I'm not sure I understand your question about wanting money. As much as it would be great to give them away for free, the reality is that it cost us money to produce them and it will cost us money to ship them. We're running this campaign in order to simplify the logistics of offering our extra keys to other people. Regarding custom key caps, another commentator was correct in saying that we're milling entirely custom shapes from raw materials (aluminum in our case). As for the circulation of Cherry MX Reds, I could only find them available in small quantities for what seemed to be very high prices, when I could find them in stock at all. The Cherry MX is a great line of switches, but Cherry is doing a poor job of helping people (well, me at least) make new products. I haven't noticed the Matias switches being super wobbly, but I also don't have a full keyboard built yet. I'll keep an eye out for this.

TrainedMonkey 12y ago

For $50 you can get a bag of 150 keys. That comes out to $0.33 cents per switch which is really close to their estimated unit price without shipping of $0.30.

busterarm 12y ago
Because of the low popularity of ALPS keycaps, the cost and MOQ of the caps themselves are significantly higher. This is the more expensive way to go.
- howardbeware 12y ago
  Since we're manufacturing the key caps ourselves, it's actually a much cheaper way to go for us.

worklogin 12y ago

I've owned a Cherry MX Red keyboard for a few years, and while I like the keyboard itself, I wish I had browns. The tactile feedback of a keypress is really needed for error-resistant typing.

ashmud 12y ago
For me, the tactile feedback is what allows me to not bottom out when typing. I feel like a can allow myself to type more lightly on browns than reds.

leetrout 12y ago

I just picked received the CODE Keyboard with the green switches yesterday and while I was swapping some caps I wondered why they didn't just make the housing clear for the backlighting. This looks cool!

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

pdknsk 12y ago

Cherry does have clear housing. http://www.cherry.de/cid/keymodules_CHERRY_MX1A-LxxA_B.htm http://www.cherry.de/cid/keymodules_CHERRY_MX1A-LxxA_B.htm And the following claim seems a bit dubious to me. > The other contact, pictured above, is gold-plated only on the small area that will actually physically touch the other contact. The reason for this is simply that the process of gold plating weakens the metal being plated, which would reduce the longevity of the key switch.

busterarm 12y ago
I'm almost certain they originally wanted Cherry Reds for this project but couldn't get their order qty filled by Cherry either due to lack of availability (they're very popular right now) or there being a high MOQ (Cherry's MOQs are super-duper high). If they were really serious about ultra-low activation force, Topre has 30g switches available (not that they could have negotiated that contract), but that's unusably low, IMO. The project may be "open" but they've gone with a key type that's only still supported by one manufacturer...
- howardbeware 12y ago
  We evaluated Cherry Reds for the project, but there were several things wrong with them. In order of our priorities: 1. It's very difficult/expensive to make custom key caps that mount to Cherry MX stems. By custom key cap, I mean a completely new shape, like this: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-g_Bi0FseNUk/VGBKMdshu-I/AAAAAAAAAeg/i2PoOoql6zU/s1600/cnc-keys-complete.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-g_Bi0FseNUk/VGBKMdshu-I/AAAAAAAAAe... We actually did come up with a method for doing this with Cherry MX switches, but the cost was prohibitive. I'll add more detail on the campaign page to make this clear. 2. The actuation force of Cherry MX Reds was just a bit too high. We're making a stenotype keyboard, which should have a very light touch. The Cherry MX Red might have been marginally acceptable, but we're much happier with the lower actuation force of our switch. 3. As you pointed out, the availability of Cherry MX Reds isn't great. 4. The price of Cherry MX Reds is much higher. Regarding the Topre switches, I agree that 30g is almost too low. Also, the mounting post for the Topre switches seemed challenging from the perspective of creating custom key caps, though we didn't actually try. As for the openness of the project and there being only one manufacturer, is your concern about availability, control of the IP, or something else?

rl3 12y ago

This seems like it might be useful in defending against acoustic side-channel attacks.