5 ms·

Computing is genuinely becoming scary. If I didn't browse tech sites or spend my days on HackerNews, I probably wouldn't know about these things. I'm getting ol

Computing is genuinely becoming scary. If I didn't browse tech sites or spend my days on HackerNews, I probably wouldn't know about these things. I'm getting older and more disinterested in the constant maintenance -- I just want the shit to work. It sucks the most for those who learned "don't install anything fishy, run a virus scan, don't open attachments, and you'll be fine." They bought a computer and followed the rules and are still being fucked over. I've seen a high number of comments that say "oh man, I never trust OEM software, clean installs only for me." So it looks like there is another rule for the pleb/peasant/uninitiated computer users to follow. I can barely keep up, I wonder how nontechnical people do.

cbd1984 12y ago
ARTICLE IS UNMARKED PDF (PDFs can be malware, too.)
remarkEon 12y ago
This. I can tell several stories of trying to set things up for my parents, only to have to call them/wait until I fly home next to fix something. Lessons have been learned the hard way on dumb email chains/anti-virus software, but trying to give them a list of browser settings (among other things) to do is getting to be too much. So, now what?
- Luyt 12y ago
  Use some software with which you can do remote maintenance on your parents' computer(s). Or, introduce them to more stable OSses, like Ubuntu instead of Windows. That worked for my neighbours ;-)
  - remarkEon 12y ago
    I've thought about Ubuntu...but it's a comfort thing. I'm afraid that telling my parents "hey so this new thing is more stable...." and it'll just trail off after that. For now, I'm afraid, I'll just keep fighting the good fight. Remote maintenance is probably something I should look more into.
    - SquareWheel 12y ago
      TeamViewer is a godsend for remote assistance. Free for personal use, paid for business. Though I admit I am starting to worry about the program itself as it's now warning about "missing antivirus" and such, but it's not gone over the deep end just yet.
      - ptaipale 12y ago
        Agreed, but on the other hand, TeamViewer is a man-in-the-middle by definition, and a definite no-no for the seriously security-conscious. For maintaining your mother-in-law's computer it's perfect.
    - joshuapants 12y ago
      Personal experience: my mother runs a Thinkpad T400 with Lubuntu and manages just fine. For many people, the look of the operating system doesn't matter much. As long as she knows where to open the browser and the email client, she's good.
- busterarm 12y ago
  I'm in this situation too. We're at an impasse now too where my mom wants a new laptop. She doesn't want to learn anything new (Mac OS) and both she and I don't want to deal with Windows 8+. I'm skeptical about just installing Windows 7 on a newer laptop (...driver/hardware support). If I could get her to switch to Mac (she's in her 70s), I could set her up with a non-admin user account and set it up easily so that I can securely do remote support. The funny thing is that she would probably do it if not for my brother, who does support for a living and doesn't want to learn to fix Macs...smh
  - ptaipale 12y ago
    Windows 7 is going to be absolutely fine. If it's what she's used to, and you have the license and media, just go ahead. And something like TeamViewer does the remote support nicely. I'm all for Linux otherwise, but in this use case I'd let old people use whatever keeps them going.
    - busterarm 12y ago
      Yeah, it's just an insecure mess. She always makes a mess of Windows machines. If her first instinct weren't always to call my older brother for help, I'd have gotten her the Mac ages ago.
      - ptaipale 12y ago
        Well, perhaps it would be good to give her a non-admin account to Windows? The same approach you'd do with a Mac, but leaving her with a familiar UI.
        busterarm 12y ago
        Privilege escalation, even with UAC at its strictest, is trivial on Windows with the malware that's floating around these days. I worked full time for 5 of the last 6 years on Windows malware research. Windows is a swiss-cheese joke of an operating system that won't progress because of a(n at this point pathological) need for 20 years of backwards compatibility. Microsoft: make use of that XP mode VM and extend that trend forwards, you fools.
userbinator 12y ago
I've convinced many people to do clean installs on new computers - my reasoning usually goes like "the software it comes with is suitable for demos in the store; when you start using it, you should clean that out and install your own." It used to be relatively easy to do a full reformat+install of the OS and drivers; not sure whether that's gotten easier or harder now.
- 300bps 12y ago
  If you buy a computer from the Microsoft Store it is guaranteed to have no crapware, trialware or any other junk on it. If you buy a computer from somewhere else and take it to the Microsoft Store they will place a clean operating system on it for $99. For technical people of course, it is no big deal to install the OS yourself, but I have to say it was nice getting my last HP notebook without a single thing I had to uninstall.
  - MartinCron 12y ago
    There was a time I would have balked at the idea of paying Microsoft $99 to ensure there was no crape are on a PC. Now it sounds like a decent value.
    - Nexxxeh 12y ago
      To set up a new machine for a client I charge about $75 to: Remove the pre-installed crap. (Using MCPR or NRT to remove bundled AV.) Ensure MSE or Windows Defender is up and running. Install the usual software - VLC, LibreOffice (or MS Office if they have bought it), Classic Start if Win 8 and wanted, Chrome with AdBlock (although may soon switch to uBlock), etc. Ninite does most of the heavy lifting on that. Setup printer. Set up local user accounts (after discussing Microsoft accounts.) Transfer the user folder (and email if client-based, Thunderbird and Mozbackup usually does most of the work.) Join the machine onto the broadband. If necessary, go through the basics of Windows 8.1, web security, backups etc. It's closer to $99 for businesses, but they usually have slightly more complex requirements. --- We used to make restore disks, but nowadays we generally don't bother as it's faster to clean install from a Windows install that already has the updates on it. I may very well start clean-installing the machines instead. One irritating thing I've come across is that "8.1 with Bing" wouldn't install from a standard Windows 8.1 disk. That may scupper the clean-install plan for home users with cheap machines.
higherpurpose 12y ago
Oh no, I'd say this is still mildly scary. Wait until cars get the same computing capabilities. Then you should fear it - fear for your life even.
danyork 12y ago
Yes, this is a huge issue. We in the technical community will take the extra steps. We will reformat a system and install a new o/s. We will go through the steps to remove malware/adware. We will install our own web browsers and additional security software. We'll use VPNs. We'll use PGP keys. We'll use Tor. But the "regular" users won't. It's not that they _can't_. It's just that for them Internet-connected computers are just tools. Tools to get to information and services... or to get their jobs done. They don't want to mess around with systems - they just want to order something online or communicate with family and friends. And they are buying laptops like these because they are inexpensive and seem to fit their needs. They just want a tool they can use. They are _trusting_ Lenovo and other manufacturers. And that trust is being betrayed.

cbd1984 12y ago

ARTICLE IS UNMARKED PDF (PDFs can be malware, too.)

remarkEon 12y ago

This. I can tell several stories of trying to set things up for my parents, only to have to call them/wait until I fly home next to fix something. Lessons have been learned the hard way on dumb email chains/anti-virus software, but trying to give them a list of browser settings (among other things) to do is getting to be too much. So, now what?

Luyt 12y ago
Use some software with which you can do remote maintenance on your parents' computer(s). Or, introduce them to more stable OSses, like Ubuntu instead of Windows. That worked for my neighbours ;-)
- remarkEon 12y ago
  I've thought about Ubuntu...but it's a comfort thing. I'm afraid that telling my parents "hey so this new thing is more stable...." and it'll just trail off after that. For now, I'm afraid, I'll just keep fighting the good fight. Remote maintenance is probably something I should look more into.
  - SquareWheel 12y ago
    TeamViewer is a godsend for remote assistance. Free for personal use, paid for business. Though I admit I am starting to worry about the program itself as it's now warning about "missing antivirus" and such, but it's not gone over the deep end just yet.
    - ptaipale 12y ago
      Agreed, but on the other hand, TeamViewer is a man-in-the-middle by definition, and a definite no-no for the seriously security-conscious. For maintaining your mother-in-law's computer it's perfect.
  - joshuapants 12y ago
    Personal experience: my mother runs a Thinkpad T400 with Lubuntu and manages just fine. For many people, the look of the operating system doesn't matter much. As long as she knows where to open the browser and the email client, she's good.
busterarm 12y ago
I'm in this situation too. We're at an impasse now too where my mom wants a new laptop. She doesn't want to learn anything new (Mac OS) and both she and I don't want to deal with Windows 8+. I'm skeptical about just installing Windows 7 on a newer laptop (...driver/hardware support). If I could get her to switch to Mac (she's in her 70s), I could set her up with a non-admin user account and set it up easily so that I can securely do remote support. The funny thing is that she would probably do it if not for my brother, who does support for a living and doesn't want to learn to fix Macs...smh
- ptaipale 12y ago
  Windows 7 is going to be absolutely fine. If it's what she's used to, and you have the license and media, just go ahead. And something like TeamViewer does the remote support nicely. I'm all for Linux otherwise, but in this use case I'd let old people use whatever keeps them going.
  - busterarm 12y ago
    Yeah, it's just an insecure mess. She always makes a mess of Windows machines. If her first instinct weren't always to call my older brother for help, I'd have gotten her the Mac ages ago.
    - ptaipale 12y ago
      Well, perhaps it would be good to give her a non-admin account to Windows? The same approach you'd do with a Mac, but leaving her with a familiar UI.
      - busterarm 12y ago
        Privilege escalation, even with UAC at its strictest, is trivial on Windows with the malware that's floating around these days. I worked full time for 5 of the last 6 years on Windows malware research. Windows is a swiss-cheese joke of an operating system that won't progress because of a(n at this point pathological) need for 20 years of backwards compatibility. Microsoft: make use of that XP mode VM and extend that trend forwards, you fools.

userbinator 12y ago

I've convinced many people to do clean installs on new computers - my reasoning usually goes like "the software it comes with is suitable for demos in the store; when you start using it, you should clean that out and install your own." It used to be relatively easy to do a full reformat+install of the OS and drivers; not sure whether that's gotten easier or harder now.

300bps 12y ago
If you buy a computer from the Microsoft Store it is guaranteed to have no crapware, trialware or any other junk on it. If you buy a computer from somewhere else and take it to the Microsoft Store they will place a clean operating system on it for $99. For technical people of course, it is no big deal to install the OS yourself, but I have to say it was nice getting my last HP notebook without a single thing I had to uninstall.
- MartinCron 12y ago
  There was a time I would have balked at the idea of paying Microsoft $99 to ensure there was no crape are on a PC. Now it sounds like a decent value.
  - Nexxxeh 12y ago
    To set up a new machine for a client I charge about $75 to: Remove the pre-installed crap. (Using MCPR or NRT to remove bundled AV.) Ensure MSE or Windows Defender is up and running. Install the usual software - VLC, LibreOffice (or MS Office if they have bought it), Classic Start if Win 8 and wanted, Chrome with AdBlock (although may soon switch to uBlock), etc. Ninite does most of the heavy lifting on that. Setup printer. Set up local user accounts (after discussing Microsoft accounts.) Transfer the user folder (and email if client-based, Thunderbird and Mozbackup usually does most of the work.) Join the machine onto the broadband. If necessary, go through the basics of Windows 8.1, web security, backups etc. It's closer to $99 for businesses, but they usually have slightly more complex requirements. --- We used to make restore disks, but nowadays we generally don't bother as it's faster to clean install from a Windows install that already has the updates on it. I may very well start clean-installing the machines instead. One irritating thing I've come across is that "8.1 with Bing" wouldn't install from a standard Windows 8.1 disk. That may scupper the clean-install plan for home users with cheap machines.

higherpurpose 12y ago

Oh no, I'd say this is still mildly scary. Wait until cars get the same computing capabilities. Then you should fear it - fear for your life even.

danyork 12y ago

Yes, this is a huge issue. We in the technical community will take the extra steps. We will reformat a system and install a new o/s. We will go through the steps to remove malware/adware. We will install our own web browsers and additional security software. We'll use VPNs. We'll use PGP keys. We'll use Tor. But the "regular" users won't. It's not that they _can't_. It's just that for them Internet-connected computers are just tools. Tools to get to information and services... or to get their jobs done. They don't want to mess around with systems - they just want to order something online or communicate with family and friends. And they are buying laptops like these because they are inexpensive and seem to fit their needs. They just want a tool they can use. They are _trusting_ Lenovo and other manufacturers. And that trust is being betrayed.