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Best advice of this century in it's class. I don't know why we are still wasting our time with calculus while I see a lot of people suffering in their daily li

Best advice of this century in it's class. I don't know why we are still wasting our time with calculus while I see a lot of people suffering in their daily life because of their lack of understanding in probability theories and statistics. Statistics is easier and even more fun to learn than calculus.

kscaldef 17y ago
Sadly, calculus is a pre-requisite for anything more than very basic probability and statistics.
- dagw 17y ago
  True, but you don't need a lot of calculus to do a large amount of interesting statistics and probability. And the little you do need is probably better being taught as needed in response to actual problems showing up. Most people learn better when they see a clear reason for what they are being taught. Start with discrete probability, no calculus needed. Then when you move to continuous case show how integrals show up naturally in place of sums, and hey presto a clear and obvious intro calculus which far more people will understand the use for.
- winthrowe 17y ago
  I think this is directed mostly at the people who will never take another math class after they leave high school. Speaking from a canadian perspective, I had Grade 11 Math, Grade 12 Math, and Calculus classes. about half of the work in grade 12 was directly preparatory for the calc class. Students persuing a trade/vocational school or no post secondary education would only have taken 11 and 12 math. if the half of the math class that was 'wasted' calc prep was replaced with 'probability in the real world' type material, you'd still be in the basic precalc stats area, but possibly giving something more useful to the kind of people that are not well represented at a site like this.
bbgm 17y ago
Because calculus is beautiful, and if you are even remotely interested in the physical sciences, absolutely necessary. I can't even imagine a high school curriculum without calculus. It's what made some of the decisions I took about grad school possible.
- dagw 17y ago
  As a counter point, I have a masters in math, but highschool calculus almost drove me away from math completely. It was very obtusely taught and by far the dullest course I took in highschool. The amount of calculus you actually need for high school science is both a lot less than what is taught at high school and different calculus than is taught at high school. I agree that most of calculus should be left to university since they're going to have to re-teach most of it anyway to undo the damage done by a bad high school curriculum.
- timwiseman 17y ago
  Calculus is beautiful and it is absolutely necessary for all physical sciences and has serious applications for financial sectors, computer science, and many other fields as well. However, for the average person who is not going into any technical field, probability will have a far greater impact on their day to day lives than calculus. Probability is useful for everyone in this world. Anecdotally, I have a bachelor's in mathematics. It occurred to me several years later when I went back to start on my master's that I had virtually never used calculus after graduating and had to review a lot of my basic calculus notes.
  - bbgm 17y ago
    At the high school level you don't really know what you'll be doing 15 years later? You should have a complete grounding, so that you can make those decisions and not have to play catch up later on. I am not saying probability and stats are less important (probability is as important and increasingly stats), but you need calculus as well, at least a good basic grounding.
    - timwiseman 17y ago
tokenadult 17y ago
Statistics is a very interesting subject, and it is a distinct subject from mathematics proper. Here (in what is becoming a FAQ post for HN) are two favorite recommendations for free Web-based resources on what statistics is as a discipline, both of which recommend good textbooks for follow-up study: "Advice to Mathematics Teachers on Evaluating Introductory Statistics Textbooks" by Robert W. Hayden http://statland.org/MyPapers/MAAFIXED.PDF http://statland.org/MyPapers/MAAFIXED.PDF "The Introductory Statistics Course: A Ptolemaic Curriculum?" by George W. Cobb http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1002&context=uclastat/cts/tise http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=10... Both are excellent introductions to what statistics is as a discipline and how it is related to, but distinct from, mathematics. A very good list of statistics textbooks appears here: http://web.mac.com/mrmathman/MrMathMan/New_Teacher_Resources.html http://web.mac.com/mrmathman/MrMathMan/New_Teacher_Resources...

kscaldef 17y ago

Sadly, calculus is a pre-requisite for anything more than very basic probability and statistics.

dagw 17y ago
True, but you don't need a lot of calculus to do a large amount of interesting statistics and probability. And the little you do need is probably better being taught as needed in response to actual problems showing up. Most people learn better when they see a clear reason for what they are being taught. Start with discrete probability, no calculus needed. Then when you move to continuous case show how integrals show up naturally in place of sums, and hey presto a clear and obvious intro calculus which far more people will understand the use for.
winthrowe 17y ago
I think this is directed mostly at the people who will never take another math class after they leave high school. Speaking from a canadian perspective, I had Grade 11 Math, Grade 12 Math, and Calculus classes. about half of the work in grade 12 was directly preparatory for the calc class. Students persuing a trade/vocational school or no post secondary education would only have taken 11 and 12 math. if the half of the math class that was 'wasted' calc prep was replaced with 'probability in the real world' type material, you'd still be in the basic precalc stats area, but possibly giving something more useful to the kind of people that are not well represented at a site like this.

bbgm 17y ago

Because calculus is beautiful, and if you are even remotely interested in the physical sciences, absolutely necessary. I can't even imagine a high school curriculum without calculus. It's what made some of the decisions I took about grad school possible.

dagw 17y ago
As a counter point, I have a masters in math, but highschool calculus almost drove me away from math completely. It was very obtusely taught and by far the dullest course I took in highschool. The amount of calculus you actually need for high school science is both a lot less than what is taught at high school and different calculus than is taught at high school. I agree that most of calculus should be left to university since they're going to have to re-teach most of it anyway to undo the damage done by a bad high school curriculum.
timwiseman 17y ago
Calculus is beautiful and it is absolutely necessary for all physical sciences and has serious applications for financial sectors, computer science, and many other fields as well. However, for the average person who is not going into any technical field, probability will have a far greater impact on their day to day lives than calculus. Probability is useful for everyone in this world. Anecdotally, I have a bachelor's in mathematics. It occurred to me several years later when I went back to start on my master's that I had virtually never used calculus after graduating and had to review a lot of my basic calculus notes.
- bbgm 17y ago
  At the high school level you don't really know what you'll be doing 15 years later? You should have a complete grounding, so that you can make those decisions and not have to play catch up later on. I am not saying probability and stats are less important (probability is as important and increasingly stats), but you need calculus as well, at least a good basic grounding.
  - timwiseman 17y ago

tokenadult 17y ago

Statistics is a very interesting subject, and it is a distinct subject from mathematics proper. Here (in what is becoming a FAQ post for HN) are two favorite recommendations for free Web-based resources on what statistics is as a discipline, both of which recommend good textbooks for follow-up study: "Advice to Mathematics Teachers on Evaluating Introductory Statistics Textbooks" by Robert W. Hayden http://statland.org/MyPapers/MAAFIXED.PDF http://statland.org/MyPapers/MAAFIXED.PDF "The Introductory Statistics Course: A Ptolemaic Curriculum?" by George W. Cobb http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1002&context=uclastat/cts/tise http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=10... Both are excellent introductions to what statistics is as a discipline and how it is related to, but distinct from, mathematics. A very good list of statistics textbooks appears here: http://web.mac.com/mrmathman/MrMathMan/New_Teacher_Resources.html http://web.mac.com/mrmathman/MrMathMan/New_Teacher_Resources...