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> should I buy bitcoins with my dollars when I can just pay with my dollars directly? Cheaper fees (0.5% vs 2.9%) can be potentially passed on to consumers. A

> should I buy bitcoins with my dollars when I can just pay with my dollars directly? Cheaper fees (0.5% vs 2.9%) can be potentially passed on to consumers. And anonymity.

jkyle 12y ago
Cash is as anonymous as it gets.
- tree_of_item 12y ago
  How do you pay with cash on the internet? You need some sort of card.
  - cdbajorin 12y ago
    Gift cards purchased with cash.
  - LamaOfRuin 12y ago
    You purchase a prepaid debit card with cash.
    - grubles 12y ago
      In a store with cameras.
      - esMazer 12y ago
        is it that different from buying bitcoins by meeting physically with someone and paying cash? or do you buy bitcoins from your personal computer? I guess no way will be truly anonymous
        grubles 12y ago
        I have read about people buying bitcoins by sending cash through the mail. That is perhaps the most anonymous one can get.
        flatline 12y ago
        The seller has your mailing address. Mining is probably the most anonymous way to do it, and by far the least cost-effective. There are, however, ways to launder your bitcoins if you really want them to be anonymous, regardless of how you acquired them.
        grubles 12y ago
        If you are buying bitcoin, all you need is the seller's (seller of bitcoin) address to send the cash to.
        iopq 12y ago
        You can mine another cryptocurrency with your GPU and use that to convert to BTC. That's actually mildly profitable if you choose the right currency and your electricity costs are not too high.
      - emodendroket 12y ago
        I mean, imagine you go in with a baseball cap, and you go to a store that's nowhere near where you live. Is anyone really gonna be able to pull that up and ID you in 6 months? A year?
  - angersock 12y ago
    I use a scanner. Sometimes, just a cell-phone camera. Most e-commerce stores have access to a printer.
Someone1234 12y ago
In the last 24 hours, Bitcoin has been worth between $232 and $238, so that could be called a 3% fee on top of the 0.5% fee, and that 3% is just from the last 24 hours. If you look at the last week, the fee could be considered even higher (more than double or quad that). The problem with Bitcoin is that it is extreme volatile. So you may gain or lose money. So while a 2.9% free on dollars is fairly predictable, you really don't know what the final "fee" would be on Bitcoin.
- pakled_engineer 12y ago
  It works like Bitpay where you are guaranteed that amount in USD after user pays with Bitcoin. They assume all price fluctuation risk.
  - esMazer 12y ago
    I think they were referring to the buyers view, where you are referring to the sellers
- ihodes 12y ago
  From the linked page: > Fluctuation-resistant > Avoid exchange rate hassles—specify amounts in USD and we’ll send you dollars.
  - thesimon 12y ago
    He's probably more referring to the customers side. Why should I buy bitcoins for let's say $300 and risk them being worth $200 in a few weeks (which would cost me 33%) instead of keeping my money and paying directly (maybe 3% fees for the seller)?
    - derefr 12y ago
      It's a much more nuanced question if you don't hold USD in the first place. Here I have a choice between holding BTC and holding CAD. Both fluctuate compared to the prices of stuff I want to buy from US retailers.
wyldfire 12y ago
bitcoin's not really that anonymous. Sure, the ledger doesn't contain identities, but it's not extremely difficult for the mapping between addresses and identities to "leak" and once they do, it's anything but anonymous.
- choffman 12y ago
  Agreed. Which is why some of the newer cryptocurrencies like Monero are gaining some attention.
  - davidgerard 12y ago
    No, no altcoins are gaining attention.
- ikeboy 12y ago
  Can you tell us who hacked BTER or Bitstamp then? Since it's so easy to deanonymize people, you know. Just look at the addresses the stolen bitcoins were sent to.
  - Retra 12y ago
    Sounds to me like you just explained why you shouldn't want anonymity in your transaction.
    - ikeboy 12y ago
      There are benefits to anonymity, which arguably outweigh disadvantages. I was just pointing out that bitcoin is anonymous when used by someone with a brain. (I.e not Ross Ulbricht, who apparently sent money to an assassin from his personal wallet, without using a mixer.)
      - Retra 12y ago
        I understand that there are benefits to anonymity, but I don't think anonymous transactions are really a priority at this time, except for people doing illegal business. I certainly don't want politicians to be able to receive anonymous funding. It's different with something like speech, where we have a rational principle that says "people can speak as a general proxy for hypothetical positions." But you can't make hypothetical purchases, and you can't represent a general population with anonymous purchases. So anonymous purchases don't have a social basis for the same protections.
balladeer 12y ago
Cheaper fees are moot points in the context of what costs the end user will incur at the end of the day. Anonymity? Are we still keeping our talk limited to "BC payments for VPNs" and "BC payment for those seedboxes in the DMCA agnostic parts of the EU" (not that it's not a valid use case)? I guess not, at least that's not the popular argument around. Volatility of Bitcoin prices puts stock market rate fluctuations to shame. Think of it from the market price point of view and from the point of view of an end user, like me - who'll buy Bitcoins (yes, one who didn't win the gold rush lottery or couldn't afford the mean machines or wasn't just aware) to buy a pair of jeans which has its price fixed at, let's say, $59.99 since last 7 months. When I bought the Bitcoins it cost me $1200/b.c, but the next day when I went to buy that jeans with my Bitcoins - or maybe I just wanted to convert it back to dollars, it was at $800/b.c or let's just say $1100/b.c if you find the former rate too far fetched. Trust me, it just doesn't make any practical financial sense to me and no, I am not in the minority, I am part of the majority. If you say that "Bitcoins were never meant for the majority in the first place" then it's a different story altogether. Also, if I would have had the 1000s or even 10s or maybe 100s of Bitcoins from the initial gold rush (given I was able to afford an able and mean mining rig) it would have been a different story - I mean my "different" point of view then. And just to be clear I value my privacy just like I know my affordability and financial limits too.

> should I buy bitcoins with my dollars when I can just pay with my dollars directly? Cheaper fees (0.5% vs 2.9%) can be potentially passed on to consumers. And anonymity.

jkyle 12y ago

Cash is as anonymous as it gets.

tree_of_item 12y ago
How do you pay with cash on the internet? You need some sort of card.
- cdbajorin 12y ago
  Gift cards purchased with cash.
- LamaOfRuin 12y ago
  You purchase a prepaid debit card with cash.
  - grubles 12y ago
    In a store with cameras.
    - esMazer 12y ago
      is it that different from buying bitcoins by meeting physically with someone and paying cash? or do you buy bitcoins from your personal computer? I guess no way will be truly anonymous
      - grubles 12y ago
        I have read about people buying bitcoins by sending cash through the mail. That is perhaps the most anonymous one can get.
        flatline 12y ago
        The seller has your mailing address. Mining is probably the most anonymous way to do it, and by far the least cost-effective. There are, however, ways to launder your bitcoins if you really want them to be anonymous, regardless of how you acquired them.
        grubles 12y ago
        If you are buying bitcoin, all you need is the seller's (seller of bitcoin) address to send the cash to.
        iopq 12y ago
        You can mine another cryptocurrency with your GPU and use that to convert to BTC. That's actually mildly profitable if you choose the right currency and your electricity costs are not too high.
    - emodendroket 12y ago
      I mean, imagine you go in with a baseball cap, and you go to a store that's nowhere near where you live. Is anyone really gonna be able to pull that up and ID you in 6 months? A year?
- angersock 12y ago
  I use a scanner. Sometimes, just a cell-phone camera. Most e-commerce stores have access to a printer.

Someone1234 12y ago

In the last 24 hours, Bitcoin has been worth between $232 and $238, so that could be called a 3% fee on top of the 0.5% fee, and that 3% is just from the last 24 hours. If you look at the last week, the fee could be considered even higher (more than double or quad that). The problem with Bitcoin is that it is extreme volatile. So you may gain or lose money. So while a 2.9% free on dollars is fairly predictable, you really don't know what the final "fee" would be on Bitcoin.

pakled_engineer 12y ago
It works like Bitpay where you are guaranteed that amount in USD after user pays with Bitcoin. They assume all price fluctuation risk.
- esMazer 12y ago
  I think they were referring to the buyers view, where you are referring to the sellers
ihodes 12y ago
From the linked page: > Fluctuation-resistant > Avoid exchange rate hassles—specify amounts in USD and we’ll send you dollars.
- thesimon 12y ago
  He's probably more referring to the customers side. Why should I buy bitcoins for let's say $300 and risk them being worth $200 in a few weeks (which would cost me 33%) instead of keeping my money and paying directly (maybe 3% fees for the seller)?
  - derefr 12y ago
    It's a much more nuanced question if you don't hold USD in the first place. Here I have a choice between holding BTC and holding CAD. Both fluctuate compared to the prices of stuff I want to buy from US retailers.

wyldfire 12y ago

bitcoin's not really that anonymous. Sure, the ledger doesn't contain identities, but it's not extremely difficult for the mapping between addresses and identities to "leak" and once they do, it's anything but anonymous.

choffman 12y ago
Agreed. Which is why some of the newer cryptocurrencies like Monero are gaining some attention.
- davidgerard 12y ago
  No, no altcoins are gaining attention.
ikeboy 12y ago
Can you tell us who hacked BTER or Bitstamp then? Since it's so easy to deanonymize people, you know. Just look at the addresses the stolen bitcoins were sent to.
- Retra 12y ago
  Sounds to me like you just explained why you shouldn't want anonymity in your transaction.
  - ikeboy 12y ago
    There are benefits to anonymity, which arguably outweigh disadvantages. I was just pointing out that bitcoin is anonymous when used by someone with a brain. (I.e not Ross Ulbricht, who apparently sent money to an assassin from his personal wallet, without using a mixer.)
    - Retra 12y ago
      I understand that there are benefits to anonymity, but I don't think anonymous transactions are really a priority at this time, except for people doing illegal business. I certainly don't want politicians to be able to receive anonymous funding. It's different with something like speech, where we have a rational principle that says "people can speak as a general proxy for hypothetical positions." But you can't make hypothetical purchases, and you can't represent a general population with anonymous purchases. So anonymous purchases don't have a social basis for the same protections.

balladeer 12y ago

Cheaper fees are moot points in the context of what costs the end user will incur at the end of the day. Anonymity? Are we still keeping our talk limited to "BC payments for VPNs" and "BC payment for those seedboxes in the DMCA agnostic parts of the EU" (not that it's not a valid use case)? I guess not, at least that's not the popular argument around. Volatility of Bitcoin prices puts stock market rate fluctuations to shame. Think of it from the market price point of view and from the point of view of an end user, like me - who'll buy Bitcoins (yes, one who didn't win the gold rush lottery or couldn't afford the mean machines or wasn't just aware) to buy a pair of jeans which has its price fixed at, let's say, $59.99 since last 7 months. When I bought the Bitcoins it cost me $1200/b.c, but the next day when I went to buy that jeans with my Bitcoins - or maybe I just wanted to convert it back to dollars, it was at $800/b.c or let's just say $1100/b.c if you find the former rate too far fetched. Trust me, it just doesn't make any practical financial sense to me and no, I am not in the minority, I am part of the majority. If you say that "Bitcoins were never meant for the majority in the first place" then it's a different story altogether. Also, if I would have had the 1000s or even 10s or maybe 100s of Bitcoins from the initial gold rush (given I was able to afford an able and mean mining rig) it would have been a different story - I mean my "different" point of view then. And just to be clear I value my privacy just like I know my affordability and financial limits too.