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> I think a lot of game designers are so tight-assed and want everything to be so balanced and so super under control — I think that’s a bad instinct. We’re mak

> I think a lot of game designers are so tight-assed and want everything to be so balanced and so super under control — I think that’s a bad instinct. We’re making games. We should allow them to go crazy sometimes. This is something I notice as a GM in tabletop games as well, and I think it's the same phenomenon. There is a tension between creators and consumers in that the former wants to provide a specific experience but the latter cannot help but to experience things their own way. Every experienced GM knows that players lay to waste the best plans. They miss clues and items that they needed to progress, while finding unexpected workarounds to problems that should have been more challenging. They have too little power sometimes, but then find a few good treasures or spells and suddenly have far too much power. Dealing with this tension usually drives towards one of two solutions: either control the experience so tightly that deviation is impossible (railroading) or try desperately to roll with the changes and keep things interesting. Video games seem to largely take the former solution, probably because it's the easiest way. But talk to gamers, and while they'll fondly remember a good story or a good game they played, it is the moments of accident where the whole thing derailed that really gets people excited and talking. Gamers like being a little too powerful, going places they weren't supposed to be. Sadly, game designers have gotten very good at conducting their railroads, but have done very little to master the improvisational artform of letting players do what they want, of feeling free and powerful but still keeping a gentle hand on the steering wheel.

Swizec 12y ago
Which is why nobody plays single-player FPS games anymore and everyone loves GTA even in single-player mode. Being hand-held from one cutscene to the next is not playing a video game.
- eropple 12y ago
  > Being hand-held from one cutscene to the next is not playing a video game. Of course it is, and it's tremendously arrogant to claim otherwise. This attempt at reduction via definitionalism is the same disease that infects people who get frothy at Twine. (Which isn't my thing, I don't generally enough visual novels either, but I'm not so arrogant as to project my preferences onto the entire classification of "video game.")
  - sukilot 12y ago
    At some point, you are watching a movie, not playing a game. A game should me more interactive than what you can do with just a casette tape and a TV remote.
    - eropple 12y ago
      Why? Why should it? If it's fun--or, equally importantly, if it creates meaning--why are you getting hung up on a creator calling a thing a "game"? Prescriptivism is death. Don't be That Guy.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
  - Swizec 12y ago
    Ok let me try to elaborate. That is why I personally have given up on the single-player FPS genre.
    - eropple 12y ago
      Me too, as it happens. I played about half an hour of Bioshock Infinite and that was the last one I even attempted. But they're still games.
      - Swizec 12y ago
        Yes yes they're still games. But it sure doesn't feel like I'm playing a game when I do them. Much like surviving isn't the same as living, savvy?
thirdtruck 12y ago
Sounds like you may really enjoy Fiasco (http://www.bullypulpitgames.com/games/fiasco/ http://www.bullypulpitgames.com/games/fiasco/), a GM-less storytelling game. There's a phase called "The Tilt" where things expressly go wrong in a random way. I've always enjoyed seeing how everyone's characters (mine included) handle the chaos.
- CodexArcanum 12y ago
  I do really enjoy Fiasco! Lots of fun, and pretty easy to get "non-roleplayers" into as well. I also enjoy running just about any game though. With practice and the right preparation, a GM can riff off what the players are doing in any game.
driverdan 12y ago
We've seen a lot of video games that integrate both of your solutions. They have a storyline you play through (railroad) but they adjust the difficulty and/or gameplay based on how the user plays. I'm not a big fan of this because they tend to be too forgiving or not challenging enough. Older games were hard which made beating them rewarding. Games tend to be much easier now. Even if they adjust their difficulty it usually errs on the side of avoiding frustration for more casual gamer enjoyment.
- CodexArcanum 12y ago
  I didn't mean to imply that there was a hard line between railroading and complete freedom. The best games are probably a blend of both, offering some controlled story experiences and some freedom to explore and discover. Perhaps unsurprisingly, my favorite video games include The Elder Scrolls series and Vogel's work. It is tricky to balance difficulty. To again draw parallels between tabletop and video games: if the players get a powerful weapon at too low a level, it can wreck the fun of the adventure because there's no more challenge. The unfun solution (in my opinion) is to take away the weapon or in some way punish the players. Instead, a good GM offers new challenges that keep the weapon relevant. Dark Souls has a good example of this. You can get a powerful sword fairly early which makes the first third or so of the game a bit easier. But it doesn't ruin the game or anything, because the challenge is still there and the later parts of the game scale beyond that weapon. Dark Souls in general is an interesting example of a game that has several linear structures in it's gameplay, but still feels open and rewarding to explore. In many ways, what you explore most is your own ability to best the game and better master the environment, rather than exploring the environment itself.
archagon 12y ago
In terms of action games, I feel the classics did it really well by having hub-type (some would say maze-type) levels and hiding a ton of secrets within them. You were actively encouraged to try to break the bounds of the map, and when you did, you'd often find little surprises, powerups, or even entire secret levels left there by the developers. I recently played Duke Nukem 3D for the first time in years and loved every minute of it. Cracking open a hidden wall and pulling out a weapon that shouldn't even be in that part of the game is so much fun. The last non-trivial secrets I remember in an action game* were in Serious Sam: The Second Encounter, where you could stumble onto random phone booths or warp into strange miniature worlds with a little exploration. Games these days are all about structured, linear experiences — a shame for a medium whose primary strength is, I think, learning and discovery. (As with all things, though, I expect we'll get a resurgence of "retro" FPS at some point or other. Really looking forward to the classic formula with modern tech!) * Actually, I just remembered that the Rise of the Triad remake had a lot of good secrets, including secret levels with RotT-classic looks. So there's another 21st century example for you!

Swizec 12y ago

Which is why nobody plays single-player FPS games anymore and everyone loves GTA even in single-player mode. Being hand-held from one cutscene to the next is not playing a video game.

eropple 12y ago
> Being hand-held from one cutscene to the next is not playing a video game. Of course it is, and it's tremendously arrogant to claim otherwise. This attempt at reduction via definitionalism is the same disease that infects people who get frothy at Twine. (Which isn't my thing, I don't generally enough visual novels either, but I'm not so arrogant as to project my preferences onto the entire classification of "video game.")
- sukilot 12y ago
  At some point, you are watching a movie, not playing a game. A game should me more interactive than what you can do with just a casette tape and a TV remote.
  - eropple 12y ago
    Why? Why should it? If it's fun--or, equally importantly, if it creates meaning--why are you getting hung up on a creator calling a thing a "game"? Prescriptivism is death. Don't be That Guy.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
- Swizec 12y ago
  Ok let me try to elaborate. That is why I personally have given up on the single-player FPS genre.
  - eropple 12y ago
    Me too, as it happens. I played about half an hour of Bioshock Infinite and that was the last one I even attempted. But they're still games.
    - Swizec 12y ago
      Yes yes they're still games. But it sure doesn't feel like I'm playing a game when I do them. Much like surviving isn't the same as living, savvy?

thirdtruck 12y ago

Sounds like you may really enjoy Fiasco (http://www.bullypulpitgames.com/games/fiasco/ http://www.bullypulpitgames.com/games/fiasco/), a GM-less storytelling game. There's a phase called "The Tilt" where things expressly go wrong in a random way. I've always enjoyed seeing how everyone's characters (mine included) handle the chaos.

CodexArcanum 12y ago
I do really enjoy Fiasco! Lots of fun, and pretty easy to get "non-roleplayers" into as well. I also enjoy running just about any game though. With practice and the right preparation, a GM can riff off what the players are doing in any game.

driverdan 12y ago

We've seen a lot of video games that integrate both of your solutions. They have a storyline you play through (railroad) but they adjust the difficulty and/or gameplay based on how the user plays. I'm not a big fan of this because they tend to be too forgiving or not challenging enough. Older games were hard which made beating them rewarding. Games tend to be much easier now. Even if they adjust their difficulty it usually errs on the side of avoiding frustration for more casual gamer enjoyment.

CodexArcanum 12y ago
I didn't mean to imply that there was a hard line between railroading and complete freedom. The best games are probably a blend of both, offering some controlled story experiences and some freedom to explore and discover. Perhaps unsurprisingly, my favorite video games include The Elder Scrolls series and Vogel's work. It is tricky to balance difficulty. To again draw parallels between tabletop and video games: if the players get a powerful weapon at too low a level, it can wreck the fun of the adventure because there's no more challenge. The unfun solution (in my opinion) is to take away the weapon or in some way punish the players. Instead, a good GM offers new challenges that keep the weapon relevant. Dark Souls has a good example of this. You can get a powerful sword fairly early which makes the first third or so of the game a bit easier. But it doesn't ruin the game or anything, because the challenge is still there and the later parts of the game scale beyond that weapon. Dark Souls in general is an interesting example of a game that has several linear structures in it's gameplay, but still feels open and rewarding to explore. In many ways, what you explore most is your own ability to best the game and better master the environment, rather than exploring the environment itself.

archagon 12y ago

In terms of action games, I feel the classics did it really well by having hub-type (some would say maze-type) levels and hiding a ton of secrets within them. You were actively encouraged to try to break the bounds of the map, and when you did, you'd often find little surprises, powerups, or even entire secret levels left there by the developers. I recently played Duke Nukem 3D for the first time in years and loved every minute of it. Cracking open a hidden wall and pulling out a weapon that shouldn't even be in that part of the game is so much fun. The last non-trivial secrets I remember in an action game* were in Serious Sam: The Second Encounter, where you could stumble onto random phone booths or warp into strange miniature worlds with a little exploration. Games these days are all about structured, linear experiences — a shame for a medium whose primary strength is, I think, learning and discovery. (As with all things, though, I expect we'll get a resurgence of "retro" FPS at some point or other. Really looking forward to the classic formula with modern tech!) * Actually, I just remembered that the Rise of the Triad remake had a lot of good secrets, including secret levels with RotT-classic looks. So there's another 21st century example for you!