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No true Scotsmen fallacy. I read Capital and some other bugs. Problem is that Marxism defined as 'class struggle' is essentially hate movement, they are define

by jkot 12y ago

No true Scotsmen fallacy. I read Capital and some other bugs. Problem is that Marxism defined as 'class struggle' is essentially hate movement, they are defined by their enemy. Once they come to power and the 'class struggle' is solved, it does not have any more solutions. So it needs 'constant revolution'. > For one, a dictatorship of the working class, such as direct democracy, is a cornerstone of communism but clearly did not feature in Soviet states. It did. But 'working class' was defined as factory workers, but 90% of people were working in agriculture. Marxist solution was to convert everyone into factory worker and kill rest. > It was a distortion by Stalin, I believe, since it's also called Stalinism. Stalin was not distortion, there were other leaders similar to him, who would take his place if we would not exist. Also other countries followed similar fate (China, North Korea...)

jwdunne 12y ago
Did Marx explicitly state working class as factory workers? Farmers who did not own their land would fall under the same category, surely? From what I've read about Marx's theories and the Soviet Union, they are two separate things. It's like comparing communism to state capitalism. Stalin also lived a life of luxury whilst many starved. This is exactly what communism was meant to prevent. This is just capitalism gone wild but where the state has a monopoly. The man at the top still eats 3 meals a day whilst enjoying movies and fine wine where a whole strata goes hungry. Funny side note: I was born in Scotland but told I'm not Scottish. I'm literally not a true scotsman. Made me laugh.
- vidarh 12y ago
  The idea that landless workers would fall under the same category comes from Lenin. It was explicitly an attempt to "work around" the many parts of Marx' theories that Lenins opposition in the RSDLP used against his own insistence that it would be possible to carry out a socialist revolution in Russia. When Lenins theory proved conclusively false (the Bolsheviks only managed to get support in the big cities in the elections in 1917, hence their coup d'etat), the Bolsheviks tried a wide range of approaches to demonise and marginalize farmers, and eventually tried to force them into collectives.
- jkot 12y ago
  Did you even read that stuff? Landless peasants were remainder of 'feudalism' and needed to be 'saved'. If peasants owned even small farm, that made him capitalist and enemy. It does not say anything peasants should have any sort of voting rights, or even control. https://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1964/xx/collect1.htm https://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1964/xx/collect... > Stalin also lived a life of luxury whilst many starved. Stalin lived very modest live compared to other leaders.
  - vidarh 12y ago
    As I pointed out elsewhere: The idea that landless peasants "needed to be saved" as well as the precursor idea (that they could be relied on to support the revolution) stems from Lenin, no Marx.
    - jkot 12y ago
      read the link I attached
sebastianconcpt 12y ago
What you said is really key. Defining any movement by hate is pathologic in the first place, no matter the rationalizations. What's worst, it will focus on self propagation of that (un)prupose. You really exposed the bug.
- jkot 12y ago
  > You really exposed the bug. typo, but it fits.
vidarh 12y ago
Where do you see hate against capitalists in Marx works? On the contrary, while he sees it necessary to overcome capitalism, he variously describes capitalism in glowing terms, describes capitalists as bound by the same system as the working class, and describes capitalism as a necessary precondition for socialism. The entire first half of the first chapter of the Communist Manifesto, for example is one long description of how the bourgeoisie / capitalist have driven humanity forwards. > It did. It did not. Not past the October "revolution". The Bolsheviks played with it as long as it suited them (that is, as long as they did not have influence in the democratically elected Provisional Government, but had influence in the Soviets set up in the Moscow and Petrograd soviets), but when it was clear that most people did not support them, they quickly curtailed the power of the Soviets and hunted down and murdered thousands of leaders of opposition groups that countered their influence in them. Including Marxists. > Stalin was not distortion, there were other leaders similar to him, who would take his place if we would not exist After he had murdered and exiled the opposition in his own party, yes. Which against followed the murder and exile and prohibition of Marxist and other socialist groups years earlier. [EDIT: Maybe whomever downvoted could bother replying]
- jkot 12y ago
  > Where do you see hate against capitalists in Marx works? The need for proletarian revolution. And I am talking about marxism, not Marx works. Marx himself mostly hated local socialists (they wanted practical stuff and found him ridiculous). > Not past the October "revolution". The Bolsheviks played with it as long as it suited them... Bunch of guys have this bible about how revolution is necessary, how it will solve everything, and how heaven on earth is coming. And when majority disagree with them, they just apologize, step down, and quietly leave to deserted island to build their version of Utopia alone? > After he had murdered and exiled the opposition in his own party, yes. Which against followed the murder and exile and prohibition of Marxist and other socialist groups years earlier. Personality cult raised in every soviet country. It is very convenient to blame everything on single person and not on the system itself. If anything famous Trockij loved 'doing paper work' even more than Stalin. > Maybe whomever downvoted could bother replying I upvoted and hate this on HN as well.
biomene 12y ago
Could you point out the passages in Capital where Marx defines class struggle as "essentially hate movement"? He had this to say in the introduction though: > “I do not by any means depict the capitalist and the landlord in rosy colours. But individuals are dealt with here only insofar as they are the personifications of economic categories, the bearers of particular class-relations and interests. My standpoint, from which the development of the economic formation of society is viewed as a process of natural history, can less than any other make the individual responsible for relations whose creature he remains, socially speaking, however much he may subjectively raise himself above them.” (Marx, Capital Vol. I, 92) Marx clearly opposes the personification of the conflict between classes. The aim of his Capital project was precisely to demonstrate how people's actions are determined by social relations, and not by greed or evilness. And what he wanted to replace were these social relations themselves, not the individuals affected by them. Also, the no true Scotsmen fallacy refers to universal claims, like "Scottish people don't put sugar in their tea". Saying that Lenin had a different view of the world than Marx, and very different ideas on what needs to change and how, can be easily backed with facts. That is not a fallacy.
- emiliobumachar 12y ago
  Regarding the last paragraph, I think the fallacy accusation had referred to the unstated universal claim that failed communist states were not really communist.

by jkot 12y ago

jwdunne 12y ago

Did Marx explicitly state working class as factory workers? Farmers who did not own their land would fall under the same category, surely? From what I've read about Marx's theories and the Soviet Union, they are two separate things. It's like comparing communism to state capitalism. Stalin also lived a life of luxury whilst many starved. This is exactly what communism was meant to prevent. This is just capitalism gone wild but where the state has a monopoly. The man at the top still eats 3 meals a day whilst enjoying movies and fine wine where a whole strata goes hungry. Funny side note: I was born in Scotland but told I'm not Scottish. I'm literally not a true scotsman. Made me laugh.

vidarh 12y ago
The idea that landless workers would fall under the same category comes from Lenin. It was explicitly an attempt to "work around" the many parts of Marx' theories that Lenins opposition in the RSDLP used against his own insistence that it would be possible to carry out a socialist revolution in Russia. When Lenins theory proved conclusively false (the Bolsheviks only managed to get support in the big cities in the elections in 1917, hence their coup d'etat), the Bolsheviks tried a wide range of approaches to demonise and marginalize farmers, and eventually tried to force them into collectives.
jkot 12y ago
Did you even read that stuff? Landless peasants were remainder of 'feudalism' and needed to be 'saved'. If peasants owned even small farm, that made him capitalist and enemy. It does not say anything peasants should have any sort of voting rights, or even control. https://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1964/xx/collect1.htm https://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1964/xx/collect... > Stalin also lived a life of luxury whilst many starved. Stalin lived very modest live compared to other leaders.
- vidarh 12y ago
  As I pointed out elsewhere: The idea that landless peasants "needed to be saved" as well as the precursor idea (that they could be relied on to support the revolution) stems from Lenin, no Marx.
  - jkot 12y ago
    read the link I attached

sebastianconcpt 12y ago

What you said is really key. Defining any movement by hate is pathologic in the first place, no matter the rationalizations. What's worst, it will focus on self propagation of that (un)prupose. You really exposed the bug.

jkot 12y ago
> You really exposed the bug. typo, but it fits.

vidarh 12y ago

Where do you see hate against capitalists in Marx works? On the contrary, while he sees it necessary to overcome capitalism, he variously describes capitalism in glowing terms, describes capitalists as bound by the same system as the working class, and describes capitalism as a necessary precondition for socialism. The entire first half of the first chapter of the Communist Manifesto, for example is one long description of how the bourgeoisie / capitalist have driven humanity forwards. > It did. It did not. Not past the October "revolution". The Bolsheviks played with it as long as it suited them (that is, as long as they did not have influence in the democratically elected Provisional Government, but had influence in the Soviets set up in the Moscow and Petrograd soviets), but when it was clear that most people did not support them, they quickly curtailed the power of the Soviets and hunted down and murdered thousands of leaders of opposition groups that countered their influence in them. Including Marxists. > Stalin was not distortion, there were other leaders similar to him, who would take his place if we would not exist After he had murdered and exiled the opposition in his own party, yes. Which against followed the murder and exile and prohibition of Marxist and other socialist groups years earlier. [EDIT: Maybe whomever downvoted could bother replying]

jkot 12y ago
> Where do you see hate against capitalists in Marx works? The need for proletarian revolution. And I am talking about marxism, not Marx works. Marx himself mostly hated local socialists (they wanted practical stuff and found him ridiculous). > Not past the October "revolution". The Bolsheviks played with it as long as it suited them... Bunch of guys have this bible about how revolution is necessary, how it will solve everything, and how heaven on earth is coming. And when majority disagree with them, they just apologize, step down, and quietly leave to deserted island to build their version of Utopia alone? > After he had murdered and exiled the opposition in his own party, yes. Which against followed the murder and exile and prohibition of Marxist and other socialist groups years earlier. Personality cult raised in every soviet country. It is very convenient to blame everything on single person and not on the system itself. If anything famous Trockij loved 'doing paper work' even more than Stalin. > Maybe whomever downvoted could bother replying I upvoted and hate this on HN as well.

biomene 12y ago

Could you point out the passages in Capital where Marx defines class struggle as "essentially hate movement"? He had this to say in the introduction though: > “I do not by any means depict the capitalist and the landlord in rosy colours. But individuals are dealt with here only insofar as they are the personifications of economic categories, the bearers of particular class-relations and interests. My standpoint, from which the development of the economic formation of society is viewed as a process of natural history, can less than any other make the individual responsible for relations whose creature he remains, socially speaking, however much he may subjectively raise himself above them.” (Marx, Capital Vol. I, 92) Marx clearly opposes the personification of the conflict between classes. The aim of his Capital project was precisely to demonstrate how people's actions are determined by social relations, and not by greed or evilness. And what he wanted to replace were these social relations themselves, not the individuals affected by them. Also, the no true Scotsmen fallacy refers to universal claims, like "Scottish people don't put sugar in their tea". Saying that Lenin had a different view of the world than Marx, and very different ideas on what needs to change and how, can be easily backed with facts. That is not a fallacy.

emiliobumachar 12y ago
Regarding the last paragraph, I think the fallacy accusation had referred to the unstated universal claim that failed communist states were not really communist.