5 ms·

First of all, calling a group of guys a sausage fest is reverse sexism. If I called a classroom full of girls a barbie play-date, or a tea party, or a "fashion"

by blkhp19 12y ago

First of all, calling a group of guys a sausage fest is reverse sexism. If I called a classroom full of girls a barbie play-date, or a tea party, or a "fashion" class - regardless of the real reason for their gathering, people would be outraged - and rightfully so. None of those things are true and it's disrespectful to say something like that. Second, the guy who said "well I should have applied for that" might have said it because two people in a row standing right in front of him just said they had awesome internships at Facebook. Sure, he could have been a total prick and said it because she was a girl, but the fact that the 2 people he asked both said they interned at Facebook completely changes the context of the conversation. If he only asked the girl and responded that way, then that would be different - and that seems to be how she's thinking about it. She's not taking into account the actual context of the conversation. Wearing colorful, comfortable dresses sounds awesome. Yeah, I like tech T-shirts, and the latter was definitely the more common form of attire at the startup I interned at this past summer, but if someone wore a dress one day, I don't think it would be unusual for that person's manager to say "you look nice today" or "your outfit looks fun." And regarding the interview, it makes sense that you'll get "better results" by dressing like a techie. There are tons of girls who dress like techies. Wearing a T-shirt with a tech logo on it just sends the message that you love technology. It shouldn't be an important factor in an interview, but of course the way you dress sends a particular message. Wearing a dress doesn't send a negative message in any way, but a girl wearing a tech T-shirt comes across as someone who is super into tech - for the same reason a guy wearing a tech T-shirt looks more into tech than someone who wears a business suit to an interview. The T-shirt could be completely misrepresenting that person's interest in tech, but the point is it sends a particular message during an interview. I hate to conclude on such a sour note, but the girl the article is speaking about seems to think everyone is against her. It is absolutely possible that this girl experiences discrimination in the tech industry due to her gender, but the examples she talked about simply don't demonstrate that in a definitive way.

ahelwer 12y ago
I guess it wouldn't be a discussion about sexism on HN without someone popping up to invalidate the woman's experiences.
- blkhp19 12y ago
  If you look at it objectively, there simply isn't enough evidence to say that her examples were purposeful sexism. As others have said, people should be mindful of how they word things. There are plenty of articles that do provide substantial evidence showing sexism. I just fail to see that caliber of evidence in this article. Her tone honestly gives off the vibe that she thinks everyone is against her.
  - ahelwer 12y ago
    I would caution you against falling into the intellectual trap of believing your interpretation to be objective, especially here. Why must sexism be purposeful? Is it not a more damning implication of the culture for non-purposeful sexism to exist?
    - cplease 12y ago
      Indeed. Lea writes a cogent article about a pervasive problem of sexism and hostility to women in education and industry and her personal experiences with it. From a thousand yards, a few of her individual examples seem that they might be a bit overblown and unfair to the other party, perhaps based on her own assumptions from being on the receiving end of so much blatant sexism. But picking them apart one by one to debunk her experience and narrative is invalidating her experience and condoning blatant sexism and hostile workplaces. It's real and it's wrong, and even those whose intentions are harmless should pay more attention to what they are saying and doing and be fucking professionals. You don't code with your dick, so there's no need to wave it around in the workplace.
      - cellularmitosis 12y ago
        I'm not sure I understand how picking apart her experiences one by one in order to be critical of a few of them is condoning blatant sexism. Why am I only allowed to accept her entire article as a whole?
  - orkoden 12y ago
Jimmy 12y ago
I generally agree with what you're saying, but what's the point of having a category called "reverse sexism"? Why not just stick with "sexism" and "not sexism"?
- blkhp19 12y ago
  Simply a choice of words to contrast the article. I get what you're saying. It's sexism in both directions.
asadotzler 12y ago
The thing is, bklhp19, we don't need your analasys to tell us whether or not there are sexism and gender issues in tech and tech education. It's a fact and we know it so all you're offering here is a dismissal of this person's concern. Is that how you like to show up in the world, challenging or dismissing people around you when they take the time to communicate their experience of known problem space?
- blkhp19 12y ago
  Bad journalism deserves to be pointed out, does it not? I am not dismissing the issue, I am claiming that her points lack substantial evidence. Just because something is a touchy subject doesn't mean the writing is infallible.
  - hotdoggystyle 12y ago
    It's not journalism, it is an opinion piece. Hence the tag "Commentary". It doesn't need to have the utmost journalistic integrity or writing. It just happens that, what she experienced and how she interpreted it, resonated with a lot of people.
- Jimmy 12y ago
  Does the HN community not see how dangerous this line of thinking is? "We don't need your analysis to know that the NSA isn't misusing the data they collect on us. It's a fact and we know it." Is this really how we want arguments to proceed?
  - zo1 12y ago
    Especially from vocal, influential people: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asa_Dotzler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asa_Dotzler I understand people can have wildly outlandish beliefs, ideas, etc. But to outright dismiss discussion this way is a recipe for group-think and, ironically, discrimination.
dudifordMann 12y ago
Side note: My relative who works in HR has told me time and again, the appropriate way to say "you look nice" to a co-worker in a professional setting is to not say it. In that setting, beyond grossly inappropriate work attire (at which point all comments should go directly to HR and not the employee), there is no need to make a subjective-comment on someone's appearance, you're there to work. (edit) grammar
- blkhp19 12y ago
  I agree with this. Nobody should be judged based on how they look. If you compliment someone and don't compliment others, it could be interpreted the wrong way. If you compliment someone and it's misinterpreted, then it could also cause issues. Just don't judge people based on superficial things.
  - tothepixel 12y ago
    Knowing this I am going to start wearing sweatpants and slip-ons to work. Perhaps I'll stop bathing too. I would certainly hate to have to call my company out on tumblr for judging me on superficial things.
    - blkhp19 12y ago
      I do see the issue with it. Perhaps nobody complimenting anyone is the lesser of 2 evils? Or maybe the trick is to keep comments about attire left up to HR. Managers and coworkers should not comment on an outfit, but HR can if a manager or coworker complains to them. Surely not bathing would get you a talking to from HR =)
- tothepixel 12y ago
  That's just sad. How far will political correctness go when we can't even compliment others.
- logfromblammo 12y ago
  Or perhaps compliment someone as Ron Swanson from Parks and Recreation would: "I find your work product to be of consistently adequate quality. I also appreciate that your personal standards for hygiene and attire do not detract in any way from the efficient operation of this office." It sounds very odd, doesn't it? The HR employee is not the gold standard for advice on how to interact with your co-workers. That person is employed to minimize potential legal liabilities to the company. The appropriate way to say "you look nice" to a co-worker in a professional setting is to say, "you look nice". You say it in the same way that you would say it to your mother, or to anyone else for which you have both some respect and zero potential for romantic entanglement. If you can reasonably say something to your own mother, you can say it to a female co-worker. Refusing to acknowledge someone else's positive qualities creates a completely different sort of hostile workplace, especially if that person is at all extroverted. But that sort of hostile workplace does not invite lawsuits. That said, "good job on fixing that DR so fast" would be a far better compliment.
gmarx 12y ago
I take crap at work for wearing sport coats and pants made of wool. I've given up on ties and suits unless there is a customer visit. A workplace has a culture and though you can exist at the edge of it, you'd better not go outside the lines. Also, I compliment other men on their outfits when they look especially well put together. No HR complaints yet...

by blkhp19 12y ago

ahelwer 12y ago

I guess it wouldn't be a discussion about sexism on HN without someone popping up to invalidate the woman's experiences.

blkhp19 12y ago
If you look at it objectively, there simply isn't enough evidence to say that her examples were purposeful sexism. As others have said, people should be mindful of how they word things. There are plenty of articles that do provide substantial evidence showing sexism. I just fail to see that caliber of evidence in this article. Her tone honestly gives off the vibe that she thinks everyone is against her.
- ahelwer 12y ago
  I would caution you against falling into the intellectual trap of believing your interpretation to be objective, especially here. Why must sexism be purposeful? Is it not a more damning implication of the culture for non-purposeful sexism to exist?
  - cplease 12y ago
    Indeed. Lea writes a cogent article about a pervasive problem of sexism and hostility to women in education and industry and her personal experiences with it. From a thousand yards, a few of her individual examples seem that they might be a bit overblown and unfair to the other party, perhaps based on her own assumptions from being on the receiving end of so much blatant sexism. But picking them apart one by one to debunk her experience and narrative is invalidating her experience and condoning blatant sexism and hostile workplaces. It's real and it's wrong, and even those whose intentions are harmless should pay more attention to what they are saying and doing and be fucking professionals. You don't code with your dick, so there's no need to wave it around in the workplace.
    - cellularmitosis 12y ago
      I'm not sure I understand how picking apart her experiences one by one in order to be critical of a few of them is condoning blatant sexism. Why am I only allowed to accept her entire article as a whole?
- orkoden 12y ago

Jimmy 12y ago

I generally agree with what you're saying, but what's the point of having a category called "reverse sexism"? Why not just stick with "sexism" and "not sexism"?

blkhp19 12y ago
Simply a choice of words to contrast the article. I get what you're saying. It's sexism in both directions.

asadotzler 12y ago

The thing is, bklhp19, we don't need your analasys to tell us whether or not there are sexism and gender issues in tech and tech education. It's a fact and we know it so all you're offering here is a dismissal of this person's concern. Is that how you like to show up in the world, challenging or dismissing people around you when they take the time to communicate their experience of known problem space?

blkhp19 12y ago
Bad journalism deserves to be pointed out, does it not? I am not dismissing the issue, I am claiming that her points lack substantial evidence. Just because something is a touchy subject doesn't mean the writing is infallible.
- hotdoggystyle 12y ago
  It's not journalism, it is an opinion piece. Hence the tag "Commentary". It doesn't need to have the utmost journalistic integrity or writing. It just happens that, what she experienced and how she interpreted it, resonated with a lot of people.
Jimmy 12y ago
Does the HN community not see how dangerous this line of thinking is? "We don't need your analysis to know that the NSA isn't misusing the data they collect on us. It's a fact and we know it." Is this really how we want arguments to proceed?
- zo1 12y ago
  Especially from vocal, influential people: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asa_Dotzler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asa_Dotzler I understand people can have wildly outlandish beliefs, ideas, etc. But to outright dismiss discussion this way is a recipe for group-think and, ironically, discrimination.

dudifordMann 12y ago

Side note: My relative who works in HR has told me time and again, the appropriate way to say "you look nice" to a co-worker in a professional setting is to not say it. In that setting, beyond grossly inappropriate work attire (at which point all comments should go directly to HR and not the employee), there is no need to make a subjective-comment on someone's appearance, you're there to work. (edit) grammar

blkhp19 12y ago
I agree with this. Nobody should be judged based on how they look. If you compliment someone and don't compliment others, it could be interpreted the wrong way. If you compliment someone and it's misinterpreted, then it could also cause issues. Just don't judge people based on superficial things.
- tothepixel 12y ago
  Knowing this I am going to start wearing sweatpants and slip-ons to work. Perhaps I'll stop bathing too. I would certainly hate to have to call my company out on tumblr for judging me on superficial things.
  - blkhp19 12y ago
    I do see the issue with it. Perhaps nobody complimenting anyone is the lesser of 2 evils? Or maybe the trick is to keep comments about attire left up to HR. Managers and coworkers should not comment on an outfit, but HR can if a manager or coworker complains to them. Surely not bathing would get you a talking to from HR =)
tothepixel 12y ago
That's just sad. How far will political correctness go when we can't even compliment others.
logfromblammo 12y ago
Or perhaps compliment someone as Ron Swanson from Parks and Recreation would: "I find your work product to be of consistently adequate quality. I also appreciate that your personal standards for hygiene and attire do not detract in any way from the efficient operation of this office." It sounds very odd, doesn't it? The HR employee is not the gold standard for advice on how to interact with your co-workers. That person is employed to minimize potential legal liabilities to the company. The appropriate way to say "you look nice" to a co-worker in a professional setting is to say, "you look nice". You say it in the same way that you would say it to your mother, or to anyone else for which you have both some respect and zero potential for romantic entanglement. If you can reasonably say something to your own mother, you can say it to a female co-worker. Refusing to acknowledge someone else's positive qualities creates a completely different sort of hostile workplace, especially if that person is at all extroverted. But that sort of hostile workplace does not invite lawsuits. That said, "good job on fixing that DR so fast" would be a far better compliment.

gmarx 12y ago

I take crap at work for wearing sport coats and pants made of wool. I've given up on ties and suits unless there is a customer visit. A workplace has a culture and though you can exist at the edge of it, you'd better not go outside the lines. Also, I compliment other men on their outfits when they look especially well put together. No HR complaints yet...