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Why the British Are Better at Satire
- rhino369 12y agoI wonder how difference between TV show productions affects this. Broadcoast TV shows in America are expected to run 22 episodes a year. In the Thick of It has made about that many episodes over 7.5 years. I don't think you can get people to watch that much biting satire in such a small time period. But I think in the end, American audiences want to see the good in people, especially the main characters. If not good, at least some humanity.
- M2Ys4U 12y ago>But I think in the end, American audiences want to see the good in people, especially the main characters. If not good, at least some humanity. What's more human than trying and failing (or being beaten by the system)?
- sanoli 12y ago>What's more human than ______________? Fill in the blank. Different cultures have different conceptions of what's more human, or what kind of drama moves them most.
- ZenoArrow 12y ago> But I think in the end, American audiences want to see the good in people, especially the main characters. If not good, at least some humanity. Perhaps it's a misunderstanding, but when British people "take the piss" they're not trying to suggest someone is subhuman, it's more often than not just playing with the absurdity in everyday life. It's not done with malice in mind, we "take the piss" of ourselves as much as we do others. It's partly a freedom thing too, you can slag off your mate to his face, and they'll do the same back to you, because you know you don't mean it. You really need to be comfortable with someone to do that though, wouldn't recommend it as an ice breaker. ;-) Here's one American who gets it... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU7L3D8Ndqo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU7L3D8Ndqo
- laumars 12y agoI did once read a comment somewhere that said it's a British quirk to insult those you like while being friendly to those you dislike. I could see how this might seem absurd to an outsider looking in. But, being English, it's definitely an observable idiosyncrasy for myself and my circle of friends.
- Swizec 12y agoI think that in the US this is primarily a male trait. Guys are supposed to make fun of their guy friends. But you'll never see girls doing the same to each other. The cool ones will do it to/with their guy friends.
- 1_player 12y agoI've read somewhere that there's no real appreciation and respect between two men unless they make fun of each other.
- bruceb 12y agoYou are worse than a youtube commenter. Edit: down voted... I guess some didn't get the joke
- mhurron 12y agoDon't worry about it. You still have valid things to say.
- corobo 12y agoNah it just didn't work for what you were aiming at, going about insulting random people is just that. People reading have no idea if you guys are buds or not so it registers as a legit complaint about the parent's comment quality. Are you American by chance?
- dropit_sphere 12y ago
- jonnathanson 12y ago"But I think in the end, American audiences want to see the good in people, especially the main characters." I used to work in TV series development. One of the ongoing legends in the TV development business is how every American TV exec loves Fawlty Towers, and even though everyone's tried to adapt it for American TV, none of their attempts has been successful. The reason being that American audiences need the protagonist to be "likable," and making the John Cleese character "likable" totally saps the comedic power of the show. I suspect there's more to it than that. Fawlty Towers plays to some decidedly more British cultural issues surrounding class and social climbing. Also, it's really freaking hard to find someone who can fill Cleese's shoes. Nevertheless, the likability issue is a big one.
- joshuapants 12y agoMaybe I'm weird but I found Basil to be likable. He's like a more competent, better-spoken Homer Simpson.
- dmolony 12y agoBut Basil is totally likeable. He's very reasonable, but the world (and his wife) always conspires against him. His only real fault is his class consciousness, but show me a Brit without any of that.
- mhurron 12y agoBasil Fawlty is many things, but I wouldn't say reasonable is one of them.
- TylerE 12y agoIs that really true? See, for instance, House: MD.
- dagw 12y agoHouse is smart, confident, funny, always right and always wins in the end (well almost) against the 'idiots' that surround him. Even when he seems to suffer setbacks they are always minor and he always twists the world to his will to get out of them. The destruction and pain he inflicts on the world never touch him. I think a lot of people like House, not necessarily as someone they'd want to work with, but as someone they'd want to be like.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- agumonkey 12y agoI think it's been mocked a bit in Community. One character was utterly fond of short British TV shows that would end abruptly after 6 episodes, while American shows would be milked seasons after seasons.
- rhino369 12y ago6 seasons and a movie!
- rikkus 12y agoA good example of 'seeing the good in people' is the difference between The Office and its US version. The former is bleak and even the supposedly 'nice' characters are quite unpleasant in their own ways. In the US version, everyone's good at heart. Except Ryan.
- shazzy 12y agoOn the subject of Prime Minister's Questions here are some clips showing how rowdy it can get; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1iL2jGZiZw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1iL2jGZiZw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUqhqsfE0YQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUqhqsfE0YQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVs1jN85w10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVs1jN85w10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUX9LvYlAps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUX9LvYlAps
- higherpurpose 12y agoThose look a lot like political rap battles.
- oneeyedpigeon 12y agoYou mean like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YBumQHPAeU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YBumQHPAeU (Edit: NSFW)
- Someone1234 12y agoIt should also be noted that PMQs are a "pressure release valve" for British politics. If you turn on BBC Parliament at any other time outside of that 30 minute period it is all very serious, very respectful, and a lot is accomplished. I had BBC Parliament on almost the entire day during the "Gay Marriage" debates, and to be frank it was some of the best political discourse I've ever seen. Even though some people took the topic personally (e.g. old religious conservatives) they were always extremely respectful to both gay people AND to other members. Keep in mind that debate was not whipped. So it made for quite an interesting dynamic with conservative debating other conservatives and some labour people coming out against gay marriage.
- zhte415 12y agoI saw 'The Day Today, Episode 1: Main News Attack' in the YoutUbe sidebar of your linked videos, well worth sharing as a staple, neigh bedrock, of 1990s UK satire that Iannucci, mentioned in the original article, was also heavily involved in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTGE9153VFE&spfreload=10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTGE9153VFE&spfreload=10
- jgrahamc 12y agoIs there any equivalent in the US of Private Eye: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Eye https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Eye? Here's a recent cover: http://www.private-eye.co.uk/covers.php?showme=1383 http://www.private-eye.co.uk/covers.php?showme=1383 and another: http://www.private-eye.co.uk/covers.php?showme=1378 http://www.private-eye.co.uk/covers.php?showme=1378
- Someone1234 12y agoDaily Show/John Oliver/Colbert are the closest the US comes as far as I know. Maybe South Park occasionally? Although both the Daily Show and Colbert have now wrapped up. And John Oliver is more like 60 minutes (before they sold out) than Private Eye.
- abroncs 12y agoDaily Show/Colbert are so incredibly dumbed down and mainstream though. And South Park has the annoying tendency to reiterate its point throughout the episode.
- wwweston 12y agoAlso, John Oliver is... British.
- L_Rahman 12y agoHis television persona however is very much a construct that owes itself to his time on American cable television, specifically the Daily Show.
- Doctor_Fegg 12y agoIt's not too different from the Now Show on (BBC) Radio 4.
- tanderson92 12y agoThe Daily Show is still on the air (on cable, so to speak). In fact he hasn't even announced an end date yet.
- ojbyrne 12y agoSaturday Night Live has done good political satire over the years.
- coldtea 12y agoThey have made jokes about politics. Not satire of the British level.
- runewell 12y agoI do love the PMQs of British politics. US Congress is not nearly as entertaining, we tend to have hour long monologues with lots of charts and little debate. US politics does have it's moments though ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPwW8nBVc0g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPwW8nBVc0g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d_FvgQ1csE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d_FvgQ1csE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcsNbQRU5TI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcsNbQRU5TI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvq2tha6heU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvq2tha6heU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u54H2sV-0Hc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u54H2sV-0Hc
- kbelbina 12y agogreat set of links :-)
- stupidcar 12y agoAs a Brit, I think this rather overstates the case. Take The Thick Of It. The article says there's no likeable protagonist, but Hugh Abbott, Nicola Murray, Peter Mannion are not unsympathetic characters, even if they're generally incompetent. I don't find the tone of Veep to be particularly less excoriating than The Thick Of It. If anything the members of Selina's team seem to be even more abusive to one another. Whenever there's a discussion of US vs UK comedy and satire, I see the same cliches about unlikable protagonists and winners vs losers being trotted out, and I wonder if I'm watching the same shows as everyone else. Are the characters of Arrested Development likeable winners? Or Delocated? Or Bojack Horseman? Or Girls? Or Always Sunny?
- JimmyM 12y agoBojack Horseman in particular has a tone and style close enough to British satirical cartoon Monkey Dust that it's a fantastic counter-example to a significant America-Britain disconnect. It also fits the bill in terms of being actual satire, however soft the target might be. In turn, Metalocalypse - another spot-on satire of an off-beat target - is American. So is Best In Show, and for that matter This Is Spinal Tap is American. Always Sunny is another great example, and I'm thinking of ever more now - I mean, Seinfeld would be the quintessential example of unlikeable losers losing, no? Or Frasier? The remake of House of Cards is hilarious for a different reason, in that it resembles a telenovela set in the White House. "Push her down the stairs! Push her down the stairs!" as the cast of Friends might chant. I don't necessarily believe in a huge gap between America and Britain in terms of satire, but I do think there's some structural difference that enabled a particular class of Britons to criticise the establishment with impunity - primarily disillusioned public schoolboys, and later Oxbridge types. My impression (it may easily be wrong) is that it is this class from which most of our overtly political satire has come from.
- ssenko 12y agoWhy are you still watching revision?
- ssenko 12y agoWhy are you still watching television? Don't you people have VC $ to blow?
- baldfat 12y agoNew England's native tongue is sarcasm and I think we do it just great (no sarcasm) BUT people who hate sarcasm I just LOVE them.
- bruceb 12y agoYes Minister. One of the smartest (and timeless) comedies of all time. The power play between politicians, bureaucrats, and the public/business. The series is better than a Political Science course. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister #5 in this poll http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain%27s_Best_Sitcom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain%27s_Best_Sitcom Start with a classic "Open Government" http://www.veoh.com/watch/v21037637mzbJZ9n4?h1=Yes+Minister+1.1++-+Open+Government http://www.veoh.com/watch/v21037637mzbJZ9n4?h1=Yes+Minister+...
- ctrijueque 12y agoIf you want to know more about 'Yes, Minister'check this book: A Very Courageous Decision: The Inside Story of Yes Minister http://www.amazon.com/Very-Courageous-Decision-Inside-Minister-ebook/dp/B00OG8CLI6/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1424235470&sr=8-12&keywords=yes+minister http://www.amazon.com/Very-Courageous-Decision-Inside-Minist...
- petegrif 12y agoThis is culturally related to the US dislike of dark comedy. Very few movies in this genre have ever been successful in the US whereas they are a stock in trade in Europe. (Dr Strangelove, Bad Santa...??)
- Crito 12y agoThe Coen Brothers' Burn After Reading and Fargo. Also I'd argue MASH, which was massively successful, though that might be stretching dark comedy. Depends on the episode I guess.
- coldtea 12y agoMASH maybe. Burn After Reading and Fargo, not so much. Not that they weren't dark -- just that they weren't a success in any mainstream way, especially the first.
- TylerE 12y agoFargo made over 8x it's budget in income on the original theatrical run. That's major success. For comparison, a traditional american "happy comedy", Happy Gilmore released the same year, made a third less despite costing almost twice as much.
- coldtea 12y ago>Fargo made over 8x it's budget in income on the original theatrical run. That's major success. Well, it's budget was a tiny (by Hollywood) $7 million, so that's not saying much.
- TylerE 12y agoBack then that wasn't nearly as small as it sounds like. Even the massive summer CGI-fest of the year, Independence Day, was only a $75m budget.
- femto 12y agoMaybe it's driven by the UK's libel laws, and lack of a First Amendment? In the US, the media can report on powerful people, then claim protection from the US constitution. In the UK, there is no such protection, so reporting facts about powerful people is a dangerous business. Instead, the strategy is to turn the events into a satire. One has to walk a fine line with the satire. It has to be realistic enough that the audience can have an inkling about who is being referred to. At the same time, it has to ridiculous enough that no powerful person will be prepared to turn themselves into a laughing stock by claiming that the satire is actually refers to themselves, which would be the implication of a claim of libel.
- code_duck 12y agoInteresting that the British have basically been doing this for hundreds of years. In medieval times, the court jester could speak freely and criticize the king in a way no others were allowed to. http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~ckank/FultonsLair/013/nock/jester.html http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~ckank/FultonsLair/013/nock/jeste...
- m-i-l 12y agoAnd more than 150 years of Punch magazine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_(magazine) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_(magazine)
- rmc 12y agoI dunno. In many cases it's quite clear who is being referred to. House of Cards opens with Thatcher being deposed. A later season has the Princess Diana character (who like in real life, divorced her husband) saying that she was threatened with being murdered if she spoke out. The main character in The Thick of It, Malcolm Tucker, was based on the spin doctor for the Labour government at the time. Later seasons reflected the current UK government structure.
- arethuza 12y agoWorth noting that the laws aren't the same throughout the UK - you can have situations where Scottish newspapers publish stuff that can't be published in England. We don't have the concepts of libel and slander here in Scotland, it's defamation and works fairly differently (IANAL) so we don't have the crazy cases you see in English courts.
- r00fus 12y agoCould it because the BBC (state owned television) effectively nurtures small series and lets them run for far longer than you would have in the US market, which suffers from both viewer and producer short attention span? Essentially, not trying to have a hit for every show results in a far greater overall success rate. If so, the analogy between the TV show market and startup scene could be instructive (i.e., nurtured small investments across the board rather than "go big or go home" every time).
- jussij 12y agoI think that has a lot to do with it. Here in Oz we have the ABC which is the BBC equivalent in that too is state owned. When it comes to all forms of locally grown TV, the ABC has a much better record of creating quality programs, when compared to the three major private broadcasters.
- laumars 12y agoWhile there maybe some truth to that, it's also worth noting that we see the same with all our (British) terrestrial TV networks. Particularly channel 4, which has given us classics such as The IT Crowd, Father Ted, The Inbetweeners and Black Books. Edit: and Brass Eye. How could I forgot Brass Eye when this topic is specifically about satire? Awesome show.
- r00fus 12y agoLet's regress this a level further - creating lots of small shows with potentially longer runs could result in a better talent pool (both actors/directors/producers), benefiting even private networks. How often do BBC actors work with other networks? If there's any cross-pollination there is an argument that the BBC's reach goes beyond it's own productions.
- laumars 12y agoIt would be hard to dismiss BBC's influence on the format of British television since the BBC (channels 1 and 2) were originally the only TV channels on British TV. And, as you rightly pointed out, there's always going to be cross-pollination with TV talent as well. However I don't think it pays to look at the BBC as a unique model in the way that you are (ie "The BBC is different from American networks therefore it's the BBC that has uniquely shaped British TV"). I don't consider the fewer episodes per series/season model to be unique to Britain let alone a BBC invention. In America you tend to refer to these runs as "mini-series", but even them aside it's pretty common to have popular shows only run a dozen episodes a season. I think the differences might be down to writing styles more than anything though. In the UK it's common to only have a 1 or 2 writers behind a popular series (or guest writers who handle individual episodes), where as in America you can have an entire team of writers. I would imagine having more writers might allow for a larger pool of ideas.
- venomsnake 12y agoAnd no mention of the best of breed - "The new statesman" with Rick Mayall ... he will be sorely missed.
- known 12y ago'Sarcasm' brain areas discovered http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4566319.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4566319.stm
- SeanDav 12y agoAt times my work has brought me into contact with Americans and in general they just do not get sarcasm and satire. Obviously not true of everyone but in general in my experience, Americans (not sure about Canadians) take things that you say very literally. Take my advice, when dealing with people from the USA, as a default, avoid irony/sarcasm/satire and even humour until or unless you know they will appreciate it. Not just in a business environment, (where it is a bad idea to attempt this with anyone) but all initial interaction. Not a crticism, just a reality.
- bad_user 12y agoWell, for what is worth, many Europeans, like the Germans, are even worse at satire and humor than Americans are.
- pluma 12y agoAs a German, I have to agree. My favourite comedians are British, Irish or Australian, not one of them is German. I find most German comedy unwatchable at worst or unfunny at best.
- throwawayaway 12y agoThis guy is pretty funny: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henning_Wehn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henning_Wehn Anecdotally, plenty of Germans have a wicked sense of humour - maybe it's a Berlin thing. Not sure their humour would get airtime on TV though.
- pluma 12y agoThe only German comedians I can think of that I at times find genuinely funny are political satirists, actually. Maybe because the subject matter simply lends itself better to deadpan humour and absurdism.
- cJ0th 12y ago> Well, for what is worth, many Europeans, like the Germans, are even worse at satire and humor than Americans are. As a German, I don't agree. I think Germans get satire and humor. I'd say we are in that respect closer to the British than the American (But I have to admit that the Brits are light years ahead when it comes to everything entertaining) It's just that our media outlets are characterized by another German trait: fear of risk. If a program works well enough than nothing is going to change. Just think about how long "Wetten Dass...?!" was on air. As far as tv programs are concerned I think that "Stromberg" or "Tatortreiniger" aren't too bad.
- lucozade 12y agoI think our friends across the pond are doing themselves a disservice. We need satirical TV because our politics is largely inanity e.g. Question Time or slapstick e.g. PMQs. The US has a system that allows them to have Sarah Palin run for VP. You can't write that stuff, it's comedy gold.
- cmdkeen 12y agoArmando Iannucci said he stopped writing The Thick Of It because too many of his mad plot lines were coming true and he was afraid to predict even madder things.
- Doctor_Fegg 12y agoConversation with a friend who works at the heart of (UK) Government: Me: "Is it really like the Thick of It?" Them: "No. It's worse. Much, much worse."
- estefan 12y agoIt's not just satire: Irony, sarcasm, comedy above the level of a 5 year old (i.e. where there's more than just a setup immediately followed by a predictable punchline: "Don't open the box Tommy!" Tommy opens the box, etc.). Classic quote: Speaking to an American about not having ridden a motorbike in years, my brother said "I'm sure it'll come back to me - it'll just be like riding a bike". The girl replied in all seriousness "Well, it IS riding a bike." Our appreciation of comedy must be different (or there's NIH syndrome), or Americans wouldn't keep remaking British comedies. We aren't as good at being loud though, so we don't have it all...
- arethuza 12y ago"We aren't as good at being loud though" In what context? I can think of a few situations where the British are world leaders in being loud and obnoxious - one of our main summer exports I'd have thought?
- estefan 12y agoAh yes! I'm so unconsciously middle class I forgot about the Magaluf crowds, etc.
- john_other_john 12y agoNah, at the fringes of east London's trendy "digital" parts, you can hear marital type arguments launched clearly across whole estate (project) courtyards, any given weekend.. Anyhow what was that about being so bad about being loud SPEAK UP DEAR, I CAN'T HEAR YOU?
- lucian1900 12y agoAs someone who is neither America nor British, I much prefer British humour as well.
- ant6n 12y agoI think I prefer British humor, but American spelling.
- kokey 12y agoI found political satire to be a very good way to learn about British politics and a bit of culture before, during and after I lived in the UK. I have looked for something similar in Ireland, and even with a country that has some shared history and a lot of exposure to British culture, it doesn't seem to be able to replicate it.
- tfgg 12y agoNot sure what you mean, the Rubberbandits do a pretty good job: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWfZ4Pw0_oE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWfZ4Pw0_oE
- gadders 12y agoIt does have a downside though. Speaking as a Brit, the kind of generous, unqualified praise that Americans seem to dish out to each other at the drop of a hat (EG You are so awesome, you are such an inspiration to me, I am so glad I have you in my life etc etc) tends to make a Brit think they are being mocked, as no British person would say something like that unless talking to their family on their death bed.
- bencollier49 12y agoAs a Brit who is occasionally effusive in his sincere praise of other people and things, I frequently suffer as a result. I remember once enthusiastically complimenting a groundsman on his ride-on-lawnmower, resulting in my being subjected to a torrent of abuse. Incidentally, I think South Africans are even worse at spotting insincerity and facetiousness than Americans.
- sjclemmy 12y agoI think Parks and Recreation is a great example of American satire. I get the impression that local government in the US is as dysfunctional as it is here (in the UK) and, let's face it, that's a great source of comedy.
- j3h 12y agoI think it has a lot to do with attention span. Watch any typical British Comedy, although littered with occasional quips, the main joke is an episode in the making and delivered with full flourish long after an American audience has switched to another show. There's a reason Benny Hill was popular here!