5 ms·

If you're as fogged out as you seem to be, then the hours you're spending at work are pretty much completely unproductive. I'd suggest you use them more wisely

by Starwatcher2001 12y ago

If you're as fogged out as you seem to be, then the hours you're spending at work are pretty much completely unproductive. I'd suggest you use them more wisely by going home and getting a really good nights sleep. Consider it an investment in being more productive tomorrow.

lkrubner 12y ago
That is useless advice. More so, it is hurtful advice. "Get a long night sleep" is not always an option. And the person above is clearly asking "When a long night of sleep is not an option, what else can I do?" We all know there are professions (fire fighters, police, soldiers, nurses, doctors, computer programmers, etc) where it is sometimes necessary to work extreme hours. And the question being asked is clearly, how do you keep operating when you have to work extreme hours? If you have no answer, then don't post anything, and let others answer.
- juhq 12y ago
  I see no reason for extreme hours for programmers, it's just wasted time. More companies should embrace 6 hour work days and 4 day work weeks, as people are then forced to work on only the important things and not do any busywork. Go get a good long sleep. Rest. Get a hammock and sleep on parks. Enjoy life. Work is not life. Work is means to an end but not life.
  - lkrubner 12y ago
    Do you realize that the question being asked has nothing to do with what you are suggesting? The question is clearly about those situations where "Go get a good long sleep" is not an option. Are you going to argue that "Go get a good long sleep" is always an option, under all circumstances? if so, make that argument: detail the cases where the whole company was depending on you to reach some crucial deadline, and you felt able to go home and have a long night of sleep. Please understand, I think your advice is good whenever it is possible. We should all try to get a good night of sleep, whenever we can. But sometimes it is not possible, and this thread is about those situations. I assume you are intelligent enough to know that sometimes sleep is impossible. If I doubted your intelligence, then I might list the many situations where you advice does not apply. I will offer just one anecdote from my experience: in 2003 myself and my business partner were going to meet with investors on a Wednesday, to ask for $250,000. We were out of money, so we had to impress the investors, or we were doomed. I started getting ready for the demo on Monday, and I kept running into bugs, more and more bugs, endless bugs. I ended up working for 20 hours, then getting 2 hours of sleep, then working for 20 more hours, so that we could give a demo on that Wednesday that was bug free. Sometimes sleep is not an option. That is what this thread is about.
    - lmm 12y ago
      > I started getting ready for the demo on Monday, and I kept running into bugs, more and more bugs, endless bugs. I ended up working for 20 hours, then getting 2 hours of sleep, then working for 20 more hours, so that we could give a demo on that Wednesday that was bug free. And how good was your bugbusting on Tuesday? If you'd gone home at 5, got a proper night's sleep, and done a 6 hour day on Tuesday with a clear head, do you think you'd've caught more, or fewer bugs? (mildly fictionalized account) Last week I pulled my colleague away from trying to fix some data loss in our production system. He pointed out, quite correctly, that unless this was fixed by midnight then our client reports would be incorrect. They were; we've apologised; we may lose clients over this. I still maintain it was the correct decision, because if he'd continued to mess with the production system in that state, there's a non-negligible chance those incorrect reports could've turned into something much worse.
    - s73v3r 12y ago
      Bullshit. How often do those "critical deadlines" end up not meaning anything other than some MBA chose a date at random? And if the business truly does hinge on meeting this one deadline, why is he he only one on it? As for your sob story, why in the holy fuck did you put off the work until the week of the meeting?
      - hnnewguy 12y ago
        >other than some MBA chose a date at random? I'll bet you 90% of these companies working ridiculous hours are run by programmers.
- Starwatcher2001 12y ago
  We disagree. I've 35+ years professional programming experience and have done plenty of insane 90+ hour weeks. I've done coffee by the bucketful, cold showers in the early hours, loud music to keep awake, slapping myself to get the adrenalin going. On one project I began a shift at 7am on Friday, programmed until the early hours of Monday, drove 300 miles, installed and trained users, and collapsed into bed late Monday evening. I'm sure you've done more, and I'm not trying to start a peeing competition, just point out that I do have experience of this. I still maintain that (possibly other than drugs), sleep is his best friend. He's largely unproductive at the moment, so a few hours "lost" to sleep is no real loss. What it will probably do is make his remaining wakeful hours more productive. "If you have no answer, then don't post anything, and let others answer." I don't see any answers in your post.
- s73v3r 12y ago
  In his situation, it is always an option. The business is not going to come crashing down simply because he decided to get some sleep.
- Silhouette 12y ago
  We all know there are professions (fire fighters, police, soldiers, nurses, doctors, computer programmers, etc) where it is sometimes necessary to work extreme hours. One of those professions is not like the others. And the question being asked is clearly, how do you keep operating when you have to work extreme hours? And the honest answer is that, beyond a certain point, you simply can't. No-one is super-human. And clearly from the description the OP has given us, they have reached this point. When you're being pressured to do those hours and you're already burnt out, it can be difficult to see your situation objectively and to make rational decisions about how to proceed. You are severely mentally impaired. The first step to fixing a problem is acknowledging that it exists, but in this sort of situation denial and misplaced faith that some sort of heroic effort will make everything better is all too common a response. In reality, if taking enough time out to have a decent meal, a bit of exercise and a proper sleep before continuing will cause catastrophic failure of the project then the project was already in so much trouble that the OP should bear no responsibility for what happens next. Playing hero at the expense of their own health is most likely just delaying the inevitable. Sure, there could be an exception here... But it's about as likely as winning the lottery every week for a year.
- hnnewguy 12y ago
  >We all know there are professions (fire fighters, police, soldiers, nurses, doctors, computer programmers, etc) Which one of those things doesn't belong? 5 of those are responsible for the health and/or lives of other people. They aren't sitting at a desk. Unless you're working on some critical infrastructure, which is probably a very small percentage of people, in what circumstances should computer programmers be working "extreme" hours? Very, very few.

lkrubner 12y ago

That is useless advice. More so, it is hurtful advice. "Get a long night sleep" is not always an option. And the person above is clearly asking "When a long night of sleep is not an option, what else can I do?" We all know there are professions (fire fighters, police, soldiers, nurses, doctors, computer programmers, etc) where it is sometimes necessary to work extreme hours. And the question being asked is clearly, how do you keep operating when you have to work extreme hours? If you have no answer, then don't post anything, and let others answer.

juhq 12y ago
I see no reason for extreme hours for programmers, it's just wasted time. More companies should embrace 6 hour work days and 4 day work weeks, as people are then forced to work on only the important things and not do any busywork. Go get a good long sleep. Rest. Get a hammock and sleep on parks. Enjoy life. Work is not life. Work is means to an end but not life.
- lkrubner 12y ago
  Do you realize that the question being asked has nothing to do with what you are suggesting? The question is clearly about those situations where "Go get a good long sleep" is not an option. Are you going to argue that "Go get a good long sleep" is always an option, under all circumstances? if so, make that argument: detail the cases where the whole company was depending on you to reach some crucial deadline, and you felt able to go home and have a long night of sleep. Please understand, I think your advice is good whenever it is possible. We should all try to get a good night of sleep, whenever we can. But sometimes it is not possible, and this thread is about those situations. I assume you are intelligent enough to know that sometimes sleep is impossible. If I doubted your intelligence, then I might list the many situations where you advice does not apply. I will offer just one anecdote from my experience: in 2003 myself and my business partner were going to meet with investors on a Wednesday, to ask for $250,000. We were out of money, so we had to impress the investors, or we were doomed. I started getting ready for the demo on Monday, and I kept running into bugs, more and more bugs, endless bugs. I ended up working for 20 hours, then getting 2 hours of sleep, then working for 20 more hours, so that we could give a demo on that Wednesday that was bug free. Sometimes sleep is not an option. That is what this thread is about.
  - lmm 12y ago
    > I started getting ready for the demo on Monday, and I kept running into bugs, more and more bugs, endless bugs. I ended up working for 20 hours, then getting 2 hours of sleep, then working for 20 more hours, so that we could give a demo on that Wednesday that was bug free. And how good was your bugbusting on Tuesday? If you'd gone home at 5, got a proper night's sleep, and done a 6 hour day on Tuesday with a clear head, do you think you'd've caught more, or fewer bugs? (mildly fictionalized account) Last week I pulled my colleague away from trying to fix some data loss in our production system. He pointed out, quite correctly, that unless this was fixed by midnight then our client reports would be incorrect. They were; we've apologised; we may lose clients over this. I still maintain it was the correct decision, because if he'd continued to mess with the production system in that state, there's a non-negligible chance those incorrect reports could've turned into something much worse.
  - s73v3r 12y ago
    Bullshit. How often do those "critical deadlines" end up not meaning anything other than some MBA chose a date at random? And if the business truly does hinge on meeting this one deadline, why is he he only one on it? As for your sob story, why in the holy fuck did you put off the work until the week of the meeting?
    - hnnewguy 12y ago
      >other than some MBA chose a date at random? I'll bet you 90% of these companies working ridiculous hours are run by programmers.
Starwatcher2001 12y ago
We disagree. I've 35+ years professional programming experience and have done plenty of insane 90+ hour weeks. I've done coffee by the bucketful, cold showers in the early hours, loud music to keep awake, slapping myself to get the adrenalin going. On one project I began a shift at 7am on Friday, programmed until the early hours of Monday, drove 300 miles, installed and trained users, and collapsed into bed late Monday evening. I'm sure you've done more, and I'm not trying to start a peeing competition, just point out that I do have experience of this. I still maintain that (possibly other than drugs), sleep is his best friend. He's largely unproductive at the moment, so a few hours "lost" to sleep is no real loss. What it will probably do is make his remaining wakeful hours more productive. "If you have no answer, then don't post anything, and let others answer." I don't see any answers in your post.
s73v3r 12y ago
In his situation, it is always an option. The business is not going to come crashing down simply because he decided to get some sleep.
Silhouette 12y ago
We all know there are professions (fire fighters, police, soldiers, nurses, doctors, computer programmers, etc) where it is sometimes necessary to work extreme hours. One of those professions is not like the others. And the question being asked is clearly, how do you keep operating when you have to work extreme hours? And the honest answer is that, beyond a certain point, you simply can't. No-one is super-human. And clearly from the description the OP has given us, they have reached this point. When you're being pressured to do those hours and you're already burnt out, it can be difficult to see your situation objectively and to make rational decisions about how to proceed. You are severely mentally impaired. The first step to fixing a problem is acknowledging that it exists, but in this sort of situation denial and misplaced faith that some sort of heroic effort will make everything better is all too common a response. In reality, if taking enough time out to have a decent meal, a bit of exercise and a proper sleep before continuing will cause catastrophic failure of the project then the project was already in so much trouble that the OP should bear no responsibility for what happens next. Playing hero at the expense of their own health is most likely just delaying the inevitable. Sure, there could be an exception here... But it's about as likely as winning the lottery every week for a year.
hnnewguy 12y ago
>We all know there are professions (fire fighters, police, soldiers, nurses, doctors, computer programmers, etc) Which one of those things doesn't belong? 5 of those are responsible for the health and/or lives of other people. They aren't sitting at a desk. Unless you're working on some critical infrastructure, which is probably a very small percentage of people, in what circumstances should computer programmers be working "extreme" hours? Very, very few.