5 ms·

Stand With Greece

31 points by sebkomianos 12y ago

mschuster91 12y ago
Pure capitalism does not care about people.
- lukasm 12y ago
  Who do you sell to?
evoloution 12y ago
Most of the slides show the effect of devastation of the Greek economy and social net. Slides 5 and 6 can be a bit misleading since it only shows that in Greece the monthly minimum wage is 586 Euros. This number is still higher than some countries of the Euro Zone, and people may think that it is pretty fine. In order to understand the crisis you have to consider that the minimum wage in 2008 was 794.02. In addition to that some people settle with salaries as low as 300-400 out of fear to lose the jobs they have in struggling small businesses. 25% unemployment is really an underestimate since people who have lost their short-temp jobs or never had any job or are in some kind of educational program are not counted as unemployed. Now take into consideration that salaries were pretty predictable for decades and people made their plans, mortgages etc, and you get a taste of what is happening...
kaa2102 12y ago
Austerity for the sake of austerity must end.
latch 12y ago
Can someone explain to me if and why I'm wrong to think of Greece as a deadbeat? I understand the point that they were forced to make cuts in exchange for loans, and this only further depressed their economy, but where did that money go and shouldn't the government and people be accountable for it? Also, even if they were wrong to do so, something must have caused creditors to demand austerity, have those issues been solved? If Greece was given a clean slate, would it be a healthy, productive and growing economy? There are a lot of places in the world where people have horrible social support. I don't wish it for anyone, but that's the reality for a lot of places. Maybe that ought to be the reality for Greece? Work until you die, third rate health care and infrastructure. I'm not happy to see it, but if you can afford more, energy is something that must be produced.
- crdoconnor 12y ago
  >Also, even if they were wrong to do so, something must have caused creditors to demand austerity Austerity in Greece (much as in America) is pure class warfare: an attempt to break the back of the working classes so that their wages and negotiating leverage will be pressured down. There is a reason that French and German creditors demanded that pensions and public sector salaries be slashed but "allowed" Greece to continuing purchasing expensive imported military hardware. It's the same reason why Schaeuble and Dijsselbloem keep pushing for austerity despite the fact that it will never help get the debt paid back: they aren't actually interested in being paid back.
  - latch 12y ago
    Is there a reason "allowed" is in quotes? I feel like I'm missing something obvious, but I don't know what. Without that [possible] missing piece, couldn't Greece just have opted not to buy any military hardware?
    - speeder 12y ago
      I don't have the full explanation now, some people explained and gave sources to me in 2011, but some legal moves were made abusing some contracts that made greece buy a bunch of military hardware for the same value as some unwanted bailout (that they also had to take, to get the bailout they actually wanted). If I rembember correctly about 100 billion in total went in thsoe sort of deals. The greek population then became very upset, because the hardware bought don't even work right (some subs that DO work, but float always tilted and are unstable, and some military planes that need an absurd amount of ground maintenance to fly just a little, something that to greece is useless, they need planes that can fly for longer time compared to the amount of time on ground).
    - crdoconnor 12y ago
      >Is there a reason "allowed" is in quotes? I feel like I'm missing something obvious, but I don't know what. Without that [possible] missing piece, couldn't Greece just have opted not to buy any military hardware? One of the conditions of the bailout to Greece was essentially that the Troika should have some control over the Greek budget to ensure that it wasn't "spending irresponsibly". The fact public sector pensions were at the top of the list of 'must-do' cuts and military hardware purchases weren't even on the list demonstrates where the Troika's priorities really lay.
martin1975 12y ago
The EU is fixing to eject Greece from the union. This has been in the works since probably around 2010. It's not a matter of if, it's just a matter of when they get ejected. That's probably the best way for them to survive rather than be assassinated by debt.
ErneX 12y ago
The problem with allowing Greece to not pay the debt or part of the debt is what happens with the rest of the countries that are not only contributing with Greece (Spain alone I believe has given 26bn € to Greece) but are also enduring harsh economic measures to put their economies in order?
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  > what happens with the rest of the countries that are not only contributing with Greece (Spain alone I believe has given 26bn € to Greece) but are also enduring harsh economic measures to put their economies in order They should exit the Euro. Better to default, deal with the temporary pain, and re-emerge vs being shackled to austerity-induced slavery. Like Iceland did. http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/financial-recovery-of-iceland-a-case-worth-studying-a-942387.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/financial-recover...
- 6t6t6 12y ago
  Well, they expected to make a good profit borrowing a huge amount of money to Greek institutions. They took the risk, they lost. It's not black and white, but from all the people who has responsibility in that failed business, I don't think Greek citizens should be on top of the list.
soroushjp 12y ago
This was a great way to see the human cost of economic stagnation and austerity in Greece, but it doesn't talk about the causes of these issues or the best way forward. Like others have said, there are many countries worldwide with poor quality of life and poor economic growth , but what caused it in Greece and what can be done to fix it? Playing into a game of picking sides in Greece versus the big bad EU powers doesn't seem credible or productive to me.
crdoconnor 12y ago
They missed perhaps the most awful kick in the teeth by austerity - Greeks can't get lifesaving drugs: http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424053111904491704576574791877220786 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240531119044917045765747... http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/03/us-greece-drugs-idUSBRE8A205Z20121103 http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/03/us-greece-drugs-id...
andrewstuart2 12y ago
if(getCookie("blah") == 0){ $.post("../count2.php", etc. If you really want to show your support for Greece, you certainly can.
cperciva 12y ago
Comparing the Greek economy now to where it was in 2008 is disingenuous. The Greek economy was thriving last decade due to a program of systematic fraud by the government; complaining about the decline since then is like bemoaning the fact that you have to take the bus after the police seized the car which you stole.
- tomp 12y ago
  > complaining about the decline since then is like bemoaning the fact that you have to take the bus after the police seized the car which you stole. More like, complaining that you have to take the bus after the police seized the car which other people stole and sold to you at full price.
jfmercer 12y ago
<sarcasm>Great. Programmers talking as if we were economists. Here we go.</sarcasm>
joshfraser 12y ago
Not sure I get the call to action here. What does it mean to "stand with Greece"?

Stand With Greece

31 points by sebkomianos 12y ago

mschuster91 12y ago

Pure capitalism does not care about people.

lukasm 12y ago
Who do you sell to?

evoloution 12y ago

Most of the slides show the effect of devastation of the Greek economy and social net. Slides 5 and 6 can be a bit misleading since it only shows that in Greece the monthly minimum wage is 586 Euros. This number is still higher than some countries of the Euro Zone, and people may think that it is pretty fine. In order to understand the crisis you have to consider that the minimum wage in 2008 was 794.02. In addition to that some people settle with salaries as low as 300-400 out of fear to lose the jobs they have in struggling small businesses. 25% unemployment is really an underestimate since people who have lost their short-temp jobs or never had any job or are in some kind of educational program are not counted as unemployed. Now take into consideration that salaries were pretty predictable for decades and people made their plans, mortgages etc, and you get a taste of what is happening...

kaa2102 12y ago

Austerity for the sake of austerity must end.

latch 12y ago

Can someone explain to me if and why I'm wrong to think of Greece as a deadbeat? I understand the point that they were forced to make cuts in exchange for loans, and this only further depressed their economy, but where did that money go and shouldn't the government and people be accountable for it? Also, even if they were wrong to do so, something must have caused creditors to demand austerity, have those issues been solved? If Greece was given a clean slate, would it be a healthy, productive and growing economy? There are a lot of places in the world where people have horrible social support. I don't wish it for anyone, but that's the reality for a lot of places. Maybe that ought to be the reality for Greece? Work until you die, third rate health care and infrastructure. I'm not happy to see it, but if you can afford more, energy is something that must be produced.

crdoconnor 12y ago
>Also, even if they were wrong to do so, something must have caused creditors to demand austerity Austerity in Greece (much as in America) is pure class warfare: an attempt to break the back of the working classes so that their wages and negotiating leverage will be pressured down. There is a reason that French and German creditors demanded that pensions and public sector salaries be slashed but "allowed" Greece to continuing purchasing expensive imported military hardware. It's the same reason why Schaeuble and Dijsselbloem keep pushing for austerity despite the fact that it will never help get the debt paid back: they aren't actually interested in being paid back.
- latch 12y ago
  Is there a reason "allowed" is in quotes? I feel like I'm missing something obvious, but I don't know what. Without that [possible] missing piece, couldn't Greece just have opted not to buy any military hardware?
  - speeder 12y ago
    I don't have the full explanation now, some people explained and gave sources to me in 2011, but some legal moves were made abusing some contracts that made greece buy a bunch of military hardware for the same value as some unwanted bailout (that they also had to take, to get the bailout they actually wanted). If I rembember correctly about 100 billion in total went in thsoe sort of deals. The greek population then became very upset, because the hardware bought don't even work right (some subs that DO work, but float always tilted and are unstable, and some military planes that need an absurd amount of ground maintenance to fly just a little, something that to greece is useless, they need planes that can fly for longer time compared to the amount of time on ground).
  - crdoconnor 12y ago
    >Is there a reason "allowed" is in quotes? I feel like I'm missing something obvious, but I don't know what. Without that [possible] missing piece, couldn't Greece just have opted not to buy any military hardware? One of the conditions of the bailout to Greece was essentially that the Troika should have some control over the Greek budget to ensure that it wasn't "spending irresponsibly". The fact public sector pensions were at the top of the list of 'must-do' cuts and military hardware purchases weren't even on the list demonstrates where the Troika's priorities really lay.

martin1975 12y ago

The EU is fixing to eject Greece from the union. This has been in the works since probably around 2010. It's not a matter of if, it's just a matter of when they get ejected. That's probably the best way for them to survive rather than be assassinated by debt.

ErneX 12y ago

The problem with allowing Greece to not pay the debt or part of the debt is what happens with the rest of the countries that are not only contributing with Greece (Spain alone I believe has given 26bn € to Greece) but are also enduring harsh economic measures to put their economies in order?

toomuchtodo 12y ago
> what happens with the rest of the countries that are not only contributing with Greece (Spain alone I believe has given 26bn € to Greece) but are also enduring harsh economic measures to put their economies in order They should exit the Euro. Better to default, deal with the temporary pain, and re-emerge vs being shackled to austerity-induced slavery. Like Iceland did. http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/financial-recovery-of-iceland-a-case-worth-studying-a-942387.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/financial-recover...
6t6t6 12y ago
Well, they expected to make a good profit borrowing a huge amount of money to Greek institutions. They took the risk, they lost. It's not black and white, but from all the people who has responsibility in that failed business, I don't think Greek citizens should be on top of the list.

soroushjp 12y ago

This was a great way to see the human cost of economic stagnation and austerity in Greece, but it doesn't talk about the causes of these issues or the best way forward. Like others have said, there are many countries worldwide with poor quality of life and poor economic growth , but what caused it in Greece and what can be done to fix it? Playing into a game of picking sides in Greece versus the big bad EU powers doesn't seem credible or productive to me.

crdoconnor 12y ago

They missed perhaps the most awful kick in the teeth by austerity - Greeks can't get lifesaving drugs: http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424053111904491704576574791877220786 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240531119044917045765747... http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/03/us-greece-drugs-idUSBRE8A205Z20121103 http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/03/us-greece-drugs-id...

andrewstuart2 12y ago

if(getCookie("blah") == 0){ $.post("../count2.php", etc. If you really want to show your support for Greece, you certainly can.

cperciva 12y ago

Comparing the Greek economy now to where it was in 2008 is disingenuous. The Greek economy was thriving last decade due to a program of systematic fraud by the government; complaining about the decline since then is like bemoaning the fact that you have to take the bus after the police seized the car which you stole.

tomp 12y ago
> complaining about the decline since then is like bemoaning the fact that you have to take the bus after the police seized the car which you stole. More like, complaining that you have to take the bus after the police seized the car which other people stole and sold to you at full price.

jfmercer 12y ago

<sarcasm>Great. Programmers talking as if we were economists. Here we go.</sarcasm>

joshfraser 12y ago

Not sure I get the call to action here. What does it mean to "stand with Greece"?