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hmm. even snowden lives in russia now. hmm. the sad side effect of the moral elite proving hollow is that those you may consider enemies might become allies. D

by cyphunk 12y ago

hmm. even snowden lives in russia now. hmm. the sad side effect of the moral elite proving hollow is that those you may consider enemies might become allies. Despite everything there is little proof of malice at kaspersky while the same cant be said for many companies in the west. If the FSB is funding research that brings unwanted transparency to the NSA, allowing us to better understand and criticize the US corporations and agencies compliment with them, then I welcome it. I doubt it is the case but if your fantasy turns out to be correct they would also deserve some poli sci props.

mahranch 12y ago
> Malice Have proof of actual malice being committed? Intelligence gathering in of itself isn't malicious. That's literally the very reason for the NSA's existence. It's like saying the FBI is malicious because they "investigate". That's what they do, that's their job. I'd be more pissed if they weren't doing this sort of thing. I'd wonder where the hell my tax dollars are going. The only thing that bothers me is when they spy on their own citizens, us. I have no problem with them spying or hacking Russia, China or Iran. Their job is to protect their country and their allies from foreign aggression and international criminal organizations. When you wake up in the morning, China, Russia, Iran, Etc... are all still going to try and hack U.S businesses, governmental services and try to gain access to classified information. Pretending like these acts don't happen doesn't make them go away.
- simonh 12y ago
  American citizens have been involved in planning and executing terrorist attacks, identified as enemy combattants and even been targetted for drone strikes. If foreign terrorists operate in the US, the only way to find them is to search. That means looking at everyone's communications, citizen or not. I'm not an American, so it would be wrong of me to assert what you or your government should or should not do in this regard. However in general I think GCHQ and the NSA have a case for some of the kinds of monitoring they are doing, I just think it's lacking in legal basis and appropriate oversight. They have shown repeatedly that we can't trust them.
  - wongarsu 12y ago
    Both data from foreign citizens and from your own citizens are useful, but usefulness shouldn't be the only consideration. If you have lots of private information about someone that means you have power over that person. For starters it makes blackmail a whole lot easier. In combination with data about other people it helps you determine who you have to remove from a group to make that group collapse. Now if somebody has this sort of power about some foreigners, that's not really a big problem for you country. But if somebody has that power about the entire population of your own country, that's a bit worse. That somebody could disable any form of democracy by silencing citizen protests before they even start while covertly controlling key politicians. If communism has thought us anything it's that you don't want anybody to have intimate knowledge over large parts of your population, it doesn't tend to end well. Oversight is a nice idea but there was already supposed to be all kinds of oversight which apparently failed. I don't really trust oversight in things this important.
- deleted 12y ago
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by cyphunk 12y ago

mahranch 12y ago

> Malice Have proof of actual malice being committed? Intelligence gathering in of itself isn't malicious. That's literally the very reason for the NSA's existence. It's like saying the FBI is malicious because they "investigate". That's what they do, that's their job. I'd be more pissed if they weren't doing this sort of thing. I'd wonder where the hell my tax dollars are going. The only thing that bothers me is when they spy on their own citizens, us. I have no problem with them spying or hacking Russia, China or Iran. Their job is to protect their country and their allies from foreign aggression and international criminal organizations. When you wake up in the morning, China, Russia, Iran, Etc... are all still going to try and hack U.S businesses, governmental services and try to gain access to classified information. Pretending like these acts don't happen doesn't make them go away.

simonh 12y ago
American citizens have been involved in planning and executing terrorist attacks, identified as enemy combattants and even been targetted for drone strikes. If foreign terrorists operate in the US, the only way to find them is to search. That means looking at everyone's communications, citizen or not. I'm not an American, so it would be wrong of me to assert what you or your government should or should not do in this regard. However in general I think GCHQ and the NSA have a case for some of the kinds of monitoring they are doing, I just think it's lacking in legal basis and appropriate oversight. They have shown repeatedly that we can't trust them.
- wongarsu 12y ago
  Both data from foreign citizens and from your own citizens are useful, but usefulness shouldn't be the only consideration. If you have lots of private information about someone that means you have power over that person. For starters it makes blackmail a whole lot easier. In combination with data about other people it helps you determine who you have to remove from a group to make that group collapse. Now if somebody has this sort of power about some foreigners, that's not really a big problem for you country. But if somebody has that power about the entire population of your own country, that's a bit worse. That somebody could disable any form of democracy by silencing citizen protests before they even start while covertly controlling key politicians. If communism has thought us anything it's that you don't want anybody to have intimate knowledge over large parts of your population, it doesn't tend to end well. Oversight is a nice idea but there was already supposed to be all kinds of oversight which apparently failed. I don't really trust oversight in things this important.
deleted 12y ago
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