13 ms·

I am from germany and I hope most of americans don't have this point of view. 1. give up freedom for some stupid terrorist attacks? why should we? We've lost t

I am from germany and I hope most of americans don't have this point of view. 1. give up freedom for some stupid terrorist attacks? why should we? We've lost the keystone of freedom when we do this and they have already won. 2. Do you really think these extensive intelligences do stop terror? (maybe they do sometimes, but terrorists will find new ways) 3. IS and others are the result of the Iraq war which was a offensive war from the US justified by a lie (Sadam had no weapon of mass destruction). Do you still think that America is the world police? The reputation of the US has gone rapidly down in the last decade. For the most here in germany the US are not the good ones any more. Other countries have their own way of life. America has to accept that.

krschultz 12y ago
I think if you start with the assumption that it would be unacceptable for the US government to do nothing about protecting the American people from terrorist attack, the kinds of targeted cyber-espionage described in the article sound pretty reasonable. They're better than launching entire wars that kill hundreds of thousands of people, cost unfathomable amounts of money, and last for over a decade, without really achieving the objective of making the country safer. They're better than torturing people. They're better than mass surveillance of the entire population of the country - if not the world. Of all the things the government could be and should be doing, spying on people that in high likelihood are a threat to the US sounds like the one I'm OK with them continuing. You have to admit, slowing down another country's nuclear weapons program with a computer virus is vastly preferable to pretty much any other option on the table - even including "peaceful" sanctions which end up having a human cost.
- doczoidberg 12y ago
  The war against terror is only an excuse for this overwhelming mass cyber-espionage. Explain me why you spy out german government. Is Merkel a potential terrorist? Yes sure.
  - asheldon 12y ago
    That's why she wasn't spied on. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/11/us-germany-usa-spying-idUSKBN0JP1QG20141211 http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/11/us-germany-usa-spy...
    - nl 12y ago
      That reports they can't find forensic evidence. But the US Senate's statements[1] make it plain that it did. [1] http://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/28/politics/white-house-stopped-wiretaps/ http://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/28/politics/white-house-stopp...
  - doczoidberg 12y ago
    What's on the roof of the US embassy in Berlin then? http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/cover-story-how-nsa-spied-on-merkel-cell-phone-from-berlin-embassy-a-930205.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/cover-story-how-...
    - happyscrappy 12y ago
      Europe loves to complain about the US but can't be arsed to actually do anything about it, they just keep electing leaders that do what the US says.
      - wongarsu 12y ago
        It's surprisingly hard to find political leaders that are willing to stand up to the US and still have reasonable opinions on how to run a country.
        throwaway2048 12y ago
        The USA works very hard to radicalize anti american factions within a country. If the choices are US backed dictator, or religious nutjob, its not much of a hard choice.
- StavrosK 12y ago
  > They're better than launching entire wars that kill hundreds of thousands of people, cost unfathomable amounts of money, and last for over a decade, without really achieving the objective of making the country safer. So is doing nothing at all. > They're better than torturing people. So is doing nothing at all. > They're better than mass surveillance of the entire population of the country - if not the world. So is doing nothing at all. We have three horrible solutions, and one that's just terrible. Maybe we should look for a good solution instead.
- robbiep 12y ago
  It is unreasonable to do nothing to stop the loss of innocent lives. However the war on terror is a media beat-up that sells papers, keeps eyes glued on tv's and serves to support the agenda of politicians who capitalise on the state of fear to get elected. This is particularly evident in the United states- as a visitor there over the past several years the level of discourse on terrorism is completely out of keeping with the actual threat, or the level of fear in my own country (australia) despite our proximity on all cultural datapoints how many terrorists in a cave have the sort of it infrastructure that require the equivalent of a Manhattan-project of cyber-espionage? (I mean, re-writing manufacturers hdd firmware?! Wow!)
ingler 12y ago
Most Americans are apathetic. Of those of us not apathetic, those opposed to the widespread espionage of the three letter agencies are in the minority. It's been heartbreaking watching the American reputation decline worldwide while also watching the inverse rise of the amoral and unrepentant technocrat here in America. It's a Golden Age for technology and a Dark Age for culture.
- tedks 12y ago
  Most Americans probably have no idea what the NSA is, even now. I'm sure most of my college friends who weren't computer science majors couldn't say what it was or what it did. Soviet citizens probably knew more about what was going on than Americans do now.
  - ingler 12y ago
    Most Americans probably couldn't name the three branches of government without looking it up first. They get exactly the government they deserve.
    - maxerickson 12y ago
      Are you a fan of H. L. Mencken? He said: Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. Quite the elitist.
      - ingler 12y ago
        Gotta love Mencken: "The only good bureaucrat is one with a pistol at his head. Put it in his hand and it's good-bye to the Bill of Rights."
    - subdane 12y ago
      Many Americans are uninformed and many are apathetic. But Thucydides said the same thing about Athenians. I don't believe it's as simple as blaming American citizens. Americans get information about the world through substandard education, uninvestigated journalism and high-fructose entertainment. The reporting on American policy outside America is far better than the reporting on it inside the country. Yes, Americans inherit this government, but as long as America is a superpower, so does the rest of the world. "Study abroad is extremely important; just for kids to get outside this country and experience the fact there is a big world out there." http://www.smh.com.au/news/film/george-lucas-attacks-us-cultural-imperialism/2006/03/24/1143083953256.html http://www.smh.com.au/news/film/george-lucas-attacks-us-cult...
happyscrappy 12y ago
Wake me up when Germany starts closing US military bases on German soil. As long as Europe is in America's pocket the status quo will remain.
- nwzpaperman 12y ago
  Wake up!
orbifold 12y ago
The difference between the NSA and German Intelligence is that the reach of NSA is larger than that of the BND. Other than that the BND also is not required to afford foreign nationals any privacy protections and is known to regularly intercept metadata in Germany. Unrestricted surveillance of foreign nationals is regulated in the G10-law, named after the article in the Grundgesetz it circumvents, but the BND has simply overreached its power and also collects data on German nationals. The control committees are also secret, just like the US FISA courts. So before we get all high and mighty, we should probably clean up our own act here in Germany. Of course the G10 laws were dictated by the Military control committee, when they relinquished direct control in the 70s. For that reason it will be somewhat hard to simply change, especially because our interior ministers have had an unblemished record in support of more mass surveillance.
- andrewfong 12y ago
  http://www.thelocal.de/20141128/bnd-spied-on-germans-living-abroad http://www.thelocal.de/20141128/bnd-spied-on-germans-living-...
andrewfong 12y ago
> "give up freedom for some stupid terrorist attacks?" What level of freedom is lost here? We're NOT talking about mass surveillance generally but the targeted access described by the OP. It's the difference between the police parking a van outside a suspected gang hideout (hopefully after getting a warrant), and parking a van outside every home in America. Most Americans are OK with the former and NOT OK with the latter. And, IMHO, that's a valid trade-off to make in a democratic society. You might object to a particular surveillance target (Merkel), which is understandable. But would you object to spying on Putin? I suspect even Germany (especially Germany) would be okay with the NSA conducting targeted surveillance of senior members of the Russian military with ties to Eastern Ukraine. In an ideal world, there would be no surveillance or any surrender of liberty in any scenario. But the world is not ideal and compromises are made. Germany is not immune to this. Case in point: Hate speech is illegal in Germany, which is understandable given German history, but a violation of free speech rights in the U.S. The challenge is not to reject all infringements of freedom wholesale but to identify where lines can be drawn between what can be tolerated and what must not.
- logn 12y ago
  They excluded a few countries and two usernames. Medium-level infection reached 18 countries. I think it's foolish to defend alleged NSA operations when the NSA won't even acknowledge such operations. If the government wants to have a debate about the rules of digital warfare (or a particular war), then let's. If they don't, then why should we defend their secret tactics? We have no idea what the motives and objectives are of these operations. And we have little knowledge about how they've affected people, innocent or otherwise. Your casual analogy to parking vans outside homes seems reasonable. Until you consider what that actually means in our real life. For instance, vans outside homes has been a large part of the war on drugs which has imprisoned a staggering number of black youth. What do you think is the analogous fallout of this malware? Drone strikes? Defend those.
  - anologwintermut 12y ago
    The notation that a debate on the rules of digital warfare will do anything is questionable. Arms control limitations (SALT,START), the hague convention, etc, work because there are means of verifying countries adhere to what they agree on (and ostensibly punishing those who don't). Given the difficulty of attributing cyber attacks (e.g. Sony), much less cyber espionage, there's little reason to think this is possible in this case. And that's just for direct action. If we're talking about tactics and capabilities, it's impossible. How are you going to make sure there aren't 30 people somewhere writing malware for a government? You can't, at least absent far more invasive spying or some kind of DRM that makes writing malware illegal.
vasilipupkin 12y ago
It's not just terror. We've got Mr. Putin out there, who at best can be described as someone willing to pursue his own interests no matter the cost. So, should we have no capabilities to defend against him. Sorry to say, but since Europe spends so little as a percent of GDP on defense, it effectively outsources defense to us, while simultaneously making fun of us for our low spending on social programs. You cannot pretend there is no tradeoff here.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- shit_parade 12y ago
  Putin is no hero, but Russia's response to a USA sponsered coup of a Democratic Ukraine is hardly surprising. God-honest Nazis run Ukraine, i'm not joking, NEO-NAZIs, that is the sort of people US policy planners are willing to support in their idiotic attempts to create failed state on the border of Russia. What do you think US response would be if China or Russia or Iran tried that same bullshit in Mexico?
  - vasilipupkin 12y ago
    God-honest Nazis run Ukraine? Are you serious ? You are repeating Russian television propaganda verbatim
    - shit_parade 12y ago
      http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/03/18/yes-there-are-bad-guys-in-the-ukrainian-government/ http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/03/18/yes-there-are-bad-guys-i... http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/13/ukraine-far-right-fascism-mps http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/13/ukraine... Please educate yourself.
      - vasilipupkin 12y ago
        According to both links, the statement that God Honest Nazis run Ukraine is false
jashephe 12y ago
> "Do you really think these extensive intelligences do stop terror?" I was under the impression that stuxnet had a demonstrably negative impact on the capacity of the Iranian nuclear program to enrich uranium. Of course, there's a whole different argument on whether or not that's in support of "terror".
dsuth 12y ago
1. I don't think the scope of these efforts are based solely around terrorist activity. They are very wide-ranging in scale, and seem to be a natural extension of the USA's foreign policy. In an ideal world it would be nice if neighbours didn't spy on each other, but in the real world, everybody spies. 2. Yes, clearly they do, and also alter the course of some very dangerous activities a la Stuxnet and Iran's nuclear program. Just because it's possible to circumvent these measures, doesn't mean they shouldn't be use either. Firstly, you've made it more difficult for terrorists and other parties to communicate effectively, which is already a win. Secondly, they will of course be updating their methods as well. I doubt very much that what we're seeing here is the be all / end all of NSA's capability. This is implied in the article, where the group hands down certain exploits / technologies for actual implementation, but tends to keep things back. A blow, to be sure, but I doubt we've seen it all yet. 3. ISIS are not the result of the Iraq war. It's very important to understand that ISIS are simply the most recent manifestation of a fundamentalist Islamic sect known as Wahhabism [1]. As convenient as it is to blame them on simple cause and effect, the reality is, as always, far more complex. Essentially this is a group of ultra-fundamentalist muslims, who have for a long time been part of Saudi's political structure. What we are seeing now is a return to their radical roots, backed by disenfranchised and poorly educated muslims across the Middle East. These are people who were left out of the massive oil money influx during Saddam's regime, and are now fighting tooth and nail against any and all transgressors - muslim and Westerners alike. If anything this makes a case for the NSA's activities, not against it. It's not the US's meddling that caused these issues (although it certainly hasn't helped); these are deeply ingrained philosophies in Middle Eastern culture. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a very good understanding of their power structure and where they're putting out feelers, than not. [1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism-saudi-arabia_b_5717157.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism...
- shit_parade 12y ago
  >3. ISIS are not the result of the Iraq war So killing hundreds of thousands of civilians had no effect whatsoever in allowing extremism and hatred of the US to thrive? How about our arming of the Syrian rebels, do you also believe our policy of handing out weapons like they're candy did nothing in assisting warmongers to engage in war? I'm baffled by the naivete of your world view.
dskhatri 12y ago
Germany has a sophisticated spy program of its own: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/04/german-intelligency-service-nsa-internet-laws http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/04/german-...

krschultz 12y ago

I think if you start with the assumption that it would be unacceptable for the US government to do nothing about protecting the American people from terrorist attack, the kinds of targeted cyber-espionage described in the article sound pretty reasonable. They're better than launching entire wars that kill hundreds of thousands of people, cost unfathomable amounts of money, and last for over a decade, without really achieving the objective of making the country safer. They're better than torturing people. They're better than mass surveillance of the entire population of the country - if not the world. Of all the things the government could be and should be doing, spying on people that in high likelihood are a threat to the US sounds like the one I'm OK with them continuing. You have to admit, slowing down another country's nuclear weapons program with a computer virus is vastly preferable to pretty much any other option on the table - even including "peaceful" sanctions which end up having a human cost.

doczoidberg 12y ago
The war against terror is only an excuse for this overwhelming mass cyber-espionage. Explain me why you spy out german government. Is Merkel a potential terrorist? Yes sure.
- asheldon 12y ago
  That's why she wasn't spied on. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/11/us-germany-usa-spying-idUSKBN0JP1QG20141211 http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/11/us-germany-usa-spy...
  - nl 12y ago
    That reports they can't find forensic evidence. But the US Senate's statements[1] make it plain that it did. [1] http://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/28/politics/white-house-stopped-wiretaps/ http://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/28/politics/white-house-stopp...
- doczoidberg 12y ago
  What's on the roof of the US embassy in Berlin then? http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/cover-story-how-nsa-spied-on-merkel-cell-phone-from-berlin-embassy-a-930205.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/cover-story-how-...
  - happyscrappy 12y ago
    Europe loves to complain about the US but can't be arsed to actually do anything about it, they just keep electing leaders that do what the US says.
    - wongarsu 12y ago
      It's surprisingly hard to find political leaders that are willing to stand up to the US and still have reasonable opinions on how to run a country.
      - throwaway2048 12y ago
        The USA works very hard to radicalize anti american factions within a country. If the choices are US backed dictator, or religious nutjob, its not much of a hard choice.
StavrosK 12y ago
> They're better than launching entire wars that kill hundreds of thousands of people, cost unfathomable amounts of money, and last for over a decade, without really achieving the objective of making the country safer. So is doing nothing at all. > They're better than torturing people. So is doing nothing at all. > They're better than mass surveillance of the entire population of the country - if not the world. So is doing nothing at all. We have three horrible solutions, and one that's just terrible. Maybe we should look for a good solution instead.
robbiep 12y ago
It is unreasonable to do nothing to stop the loss of innocent lives. However the war on terror is a media beat-up that sells papers, keeps eyes glued on tv's and serves to support the agenda of politicians who capitalise on the state of fear to get elected. This is particularly evident in the United states- as a visitor there over the past several years the level of discourse on terrorism is completely out of keeping with the actual threat, or the level of fear in my own country (australia) despite our proximity on all cultural datapoints how many terrorists in a cave have the sort of it infrastructure that require the equivalent of a Manhattan-project of cyber-espionage? (I mean, re-writing manufacturers hdd firmware?! Wow!)

ingler 12y ago

Most Americans are apathetic. Of those of us not apathetic, those opposed to the widespread espionage of the three letter agencies are in the minority. It's been heartbreaking watching the American reputation decline worldwide while also watching the inverse rise of the amoral and unrepentant technocrat here in America. It's a Golden Age for technology and a Dark Age for culture.

tedks 12y ago
Most Americans probably have no idea what the NSA is, even now. I'm sure most of my college friends who weren't computer science majors couldn't say what it was or what it did. Soviet citizens probably knew more about what was going on than Americans do now.
- ingler 12y ago
  Most Americans probably couldn't name the three branches of government without looking it up first. They get exactly the government they deserve.
  - maxerickson 12y ago
    Are you a fan of H. L. Mencken? He said: Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. Quite the elitist.
    - ingler 12y ago
      Gotta love Mencken: "The only good bureaucrat is one with a pistol at his head. Put it in his hand and it's good-bye to the Bill of Rights."
  - subdane 12y ago
    Many Americans are uninformed and many are apathetic. But Thucydides said the same thing about Athenians. I don't believe it's as simple as blaming American citizens. Americans get information about the world through substandard education, uninvestigated journalism and high-fructose entertainment. The reporting on American policy outside America is far better than the reporting on it inside the country. Yes, Americans inherit this government, but as long as America is a superpower, so does the rest of the world. "Study abroad is extremely important; just for kids to get outside this country and experience the fact there is a big world out there." http://www.smh.com.au/news/film/george-lucas-attacks-us-cultural-imperialism/2006/03/24/1143083953256.html http://www.smh.com.au/news/film/george-lucas-attacks-us-cult...

happyscrappy 12y ago

Wake me up when Germany starts closing US military bases on German soil. As long as Europe is in America's pocket the status quo will remain.

nwzpaperman 12y ago
Wake up!

orbifold 12y ago

The difference between the NSA and German Intelligence is that the reach of NSA is larger than that of the BND. Other than that the BND also is not required to afford foreign nationals any privacy protections and is known to regularly intercept metadata in Germany. Unrestricted surveillance of foreign nationals is regulated in the G10-law, named after the article in the Grundgesetz it circumvents, but the BND has simply overreached its power and also collects data on German nationals. The control committees are also secret, just like the US FISA courts. So before we get all high and mighty, we should probably clean up our own act here in Germany. Of course the G10 laws were dictated by the Military control committee, when they relinquished direct control in the 70s. For that reason it will be somewhat hard to simply change, especially because our interior ministers have had an unblemished record in support of more mass surveillance.

andrewfong 12y ago
http://www.thelocal.de/20141128/bnd-spied-on-germans-living-abroad http://www.thelocal.de/20141128/bnd-spied-on-germans-living-...

andrewfong 12y ago

> "give up freedom for some stupid terrorist attacks?" What level of freedom is lost here? We're NOT talking about mass surveillance generally but the targeted access described by the OP. It's the difference between the police parking a van outside a suspected gang hideout (hopefully after getting a warrant), and parking a van outside every home in America. Most Americans are OK with the former and NOT OK with the latter. And, IMHO, that's a valid trade-off to make in a democratic society. You might object to a particular surveillance target (Merkel), which is understandable. But would you object to spying on Putin? I suspect even Germany (especially Germany) would be okay with the NSA conducting targeted surveillance of senior members of the Russian military with ties to Eastern Ukraine. In an ideal world, there would be no surveillance or any surrender of liberty in any scenario. But the world is not ideal and compromises are made. Germany is not immune to this. Case in point: Hate speech is illegal in Germany, which is understandable given German history, but a violation of free speech rights in the U.S. The challenge is not to reject all infringements of freedom wholesale but to identify where lines can be drawn between what can be tolerated and what must not.

logn 12y ago
They excluded a few countries and two usernames. Medium-level infection reached 18 countries. I think it's foolish to defend alleged NSA operations when the NSA won't even acknowledge such operations. If the government wants to have a debate about the rules of digital warfare (or a particular war), then let's. If they don't, then why should we defend their secret tactics? We have no idea what the motives and objectives are of these operations. And we have little knowledge about how they've affected people, innocent or otherwise. Your casual analogy to parking vans outside homes seems reasonable. Until you consider what that actually means in our real life. For instance, vans outside homes has been a large part of the war on drugs which has imprisoned a staggering number of black youth. What do you think is the analogous fallout of this malware? Drone strikes? Defend those.
- anologwintermut 12y ago
  The notation that a debate on the rules of digital warfare will do anything is questionable. Arms control limitations (SALT,START), the hague convention, etc, work because there are means of verifying countries adhere to what they agree on (and ostensibly punishing those who don't). Given the difficulty of attributing cyber attacks (e.g. Sony), much less cyber espionage, there's little reason to think this is possible in this case. And that's just for direct action. If we're talking about tactics and capabilities, it's impossible. How are you going to make sure there aren't 30 people somewhere writing malware for a government? You can't, at least absent far more invasive spying or some kind of DRM that makes writing malware illegal.

vasilipupkin 12y ago

It's not just terror. We've got Mr. Putin out there, who at best can be described as someone willing to pursue his own interests no matter the cost. So, should we have no capabilities to defend against him. Sorry to say, but since Europe spends so little as a percent of GDP on defense, it effectively outsources defense to us, while simultaneously making fun of us for our low spending on social programs. You cannot pretend there is no tradeoff here.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
shit_parade 12y ago
Putin is no hero, but Russia's response to a USA sponsered coup of a Democratic Ukraine is hardly surprising. God-honest Nazis run Ukraine, i'm not joking, NEO-NAZIs, that is the sort of people US policy planners are willing to support in their idiotic attempts to create failed state on the border of Russia. What do you think US response would be if China or Russia or Iran tried that same bullshit in Mexico?
- vasilipupkin 12y ago
  God-honest Nazis run Ukraine? Are you serious ? You are repeating Russian television propaganda verbatim
  - shit_parade 12y ago
    http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/03/18/yes-there-are-bad-guys-in-the-ukrainian-government/ http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/03/18/yes-there-are-bad-guys-i... http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/13/ukraine-far-right-fascism-mps http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/13/ukraine... Please educate yourself.
    - vasilipupkin 12y ago
      According to both links, the statement that God Honest Nazis run Ukraine is false

jashephe 12y ago

> "Do you really think these extensive intelligences do stop terror?" I was under the impression that stuxnet had a demonstrably negative impact on the capacity of the Iranian nuclear program to enrich uranium. Of course, there's a whole different argument on whether or not that's in support of "terror".

dsuth 12y ago

1. I don't think the scope of these efforts are based solely around terrorist activity. They are very wide-ranging in scale, and seem to be a natural extension of the USA's foreign policy. In an ideal world it would be nice if neighbours didn't spy on each other, but in the real world, everybody spies. 2. Yes, clearly they do, and also alter the course of some very dangerous activities a la Stuxnet and Iran's nuclear program. Just because it's possible to circumvent these measures, doesn't mean they shouldn't be use either. Firstly, you've made it more difficult for terrorists and other parties to communicate effectively, which is already a win. Secondly, they will of course be updating their methods as well. I doubt very much that what we're seeing here is the be all / end all of NSA's capability. This is implied in the article, where the group hands down certain exploits / technologies for actual implementation, but tends to keep things back. A blow, to be sure, but I doubt we've seen it all yet. 3. ISIS are not the result of the Iraq war. It's very important to understand that ISIS are simply the most recent manifestation of a fundamentalist Islamic sect known as Wahhabism [1]. As convenient as it is to blame them on simple cause and effect, the reality is, as always, far more complex. Essentially this is a group of ultra-fundamentalist muslims, who have for a long time been part of Saudi's political structure. What we are seeing now is a return to their radical roots, backed by disenfranchised and poorly educated muslims across the Middle East. These are people who were left out of the massive oil money influx during Saddam's regime, and are now fighting tooth and nail against any and all transgressors - muslim and Westerners alike. If anything this makes a case for the NSA's activities, not against it. It's not the US's meddling that caused these issues (although it certainly hasn't helped); these are deeply ingrained philosophies in Middle Eastern culture. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a very good understanding of their power structure and where they're putting out feelers, than not. [1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism-saudi-arabia_b_5717157.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism...

shit_parade 12y ago
>3. ISIS are not the result of the Iraq war So killing hundreds of thousands of civilians had no effect whatsoever in allowing extremism and hatred of the US to thrive? How about our arming of the Syrian rebels, do you also believe our policy of handing out weapons like they're candy did nothing in assisting warmongers to engage in war? I'm baffled by the naivete of your world view.

dskhatri 12y ago

Germany has a sophisticated spy program of its own: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/04/german-intelligency-service-nsa-internet-laws http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/04/german-...