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> Snowden's revelations have hurt the United States' relations with some allies and slowed the sales of U.S. technology products abroad. God damn it. Again wit

> Snowden's revelations have hurt the United States' relations with some allies and slowed the sales of U.S. technology products abroad. God damn it. Again with the "kill the messenger" attitude. It's not the disclosure of the acts that harmed the relationships. It's the spying and hacking acts themselves. It's like your friend telling you your girlfriend is cheating on you, and getting mad at the friend instead of the girlfriend, for "harming your relationship". You don't want your relationships harmed? Uhh..here's a solution for you, US government: don't fucking do it to your allies in the first place if you don't want your relationships "harmed". It's not rocket science.

cecilpl 12y ago
International relations is not as simple as your girlfriend cheating on you.
- craigjb 12y ago
  I agree. How come as software engineers, we like to talk about larger emergent behavior from large groups of simple pieces, but when we talk about governments and nations (large groups of complex pieces) we use analogies to simple systems? For example, the national debt does not operate like a household debt. The cacophony of systems at work in a nation makes it exponentially more nuanced. Some rules are emergent only at the larger scale. Or, international relations. Nation to nation relations don't consist of just the heads of state, but whole organizations of people interacting. Again, a large group of complex things (people) interacting probably creates some emergent behavior not visible in small groups. It's frustrating to see these systems reduced without any thought.
leereeves 12y ago
I agree, but that attitude makes sense from a certain perspective (shared by much of the government, and parts of the media and corporate leadership). It's more like _your girlfriend_ getting mad at your friend for telling you she was cheating. Or "We would have gotten away with it if not for that meddling kid."

cecilpl 12y ago

International relations is not as simple as your girlfriend cheating on you.

craigjb 12y ago
I agree. How come as software engineers, we like to talk about larger emergent behavior from large groups of simple pieces, but when we talk about governments and nations (large groups of complex pieces) we use analogies to simple systems? For example, the national debt does not operate like a household debt. The cacophony of systems at work in a nation makes it exponentially more nuanced. Some rules are emergent only at the larger scale. Or, international relations. Nation to nation relations don't consist of just the heads of state, but whole organizations of people interacting. Again, a large group of complex things (people) interacting probably creates some emergent behavior not visible in small groups. It's frustrating to see these systems reduced without any thought.

leereeves 12y ago

I agree, but that attitude makes sense from a certain perspective (shared by much of the government, and parts of the media and corporate leadership). It's more like _your girlfriend_ getting mad at your friend for telling you she was cheating. Or "We would have gotten away with it if not for that meddling kid."