4 ms·

Using the Google Books ngram viewer doesn't seem to be the best source for determining the age of alcohol brands. The dates you present are no where near the ac

by bradyd 12y ago

Using the Google Books ngram viewer doesn't seem to be the best source for determining the age of alcohol brands. The dates you present are no where near the actual ages of the brands. Smirnoff and Bacardi were both founded in the 1860s, Beefeater and Jack Daniels the 1870s, Gordon's is from 1769, and Remy Martin is from 1724 (source: Wikipedia).

dredmorbius 12y ago
The ngram viewer, you're correct, doesn't clearly indicate the origin date of several of these names. But you can bet your patootie it shows you when they emerged into common and popular usage. And that's the point I'm making here. Yes, some of those brands "existed" going back through history to dates earlier than U.S. Prohibition. I explored that aspect in an earlier question to reddit's /r/AskHistorians, and from what I could glean from that, while the names existed they were largely as small and local establishments. Not the national conglomerates we've got today. Most large alcohol brands underwent a revolution in the post-WWII era. Many far more recently than that.
- TillE 12y ago
  You're putting far too much faith into the contents and completeness of Google's searchable archives. Newspapers and a selection of contemporary books may be a reasonable guide for broad trends and significant events, but in no way can they be relied upon to contain every little detail of the world around them.
  - dredmorbius 12y ago
    I'd welcome an alternate credible source which demonstrates an alternate conclusion. Otherwise you're simply hand-waving (along with numerous others here). I have substantiated the general conclusions with a number of other avenues of research. I suspect they're sound.
- gaadd33 12y ago
  Wouldn't a lot of that be due to globalization? No sense in advertising Remy Martin to people in revolutionary New York when the cost of transporting a bottle there would have been obscene.
  - dredmorbius 12y ago
    "Globalization" really wasn't much of a thing in the 1950s. Mass-merchandising, mass-media, a consumer economy, TV and radio advertising, and expendable income were all things, however.
  - dredmorbius 12y ago
    More on "globalization" -- late 1990s onward: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=globalization&year_start=1900&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cglobalization%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=globalization&...
    - gaadd33 12y ago
      Wait, are you saying that the concept of "globalization" didn't exist prior to the late 1990s? Most historians seem to agree that it has existed as far back as ancient Greece if not further. If you are just measuring how frequently the word appears in popular usage, I don't see how that really has any bearing on the actual phenomenon. I don't think you are going to dispute that gravity existed and had a major impact prior to 1616 are you? https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=%22gravity%22&year_start=1500&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2C%22%20gravity%20%22%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=%22gravity%22&... (Side note, if you put your search term in quotes it generates totally different results than if it's alone, in any case, I'm pretty sure that gravity existed before it started to take off in the media in the 1650s.)

by bradyd 12y ago

dredmorbius 12y ago

The ngram viewer, you're correct, doesn't clearly indicate the origin date of several of these names. But you can bet your patootie it shows you when they emerged into common and popular usage. And that's the point I'm making here. Yes, some of those brands "existed" going back through history to dates earlier than U.S. Prohibition. I explored that aspect in an earlier question to reddit's /r/AskHistorians, and from what I could glean from that, while the names existed they were largely as small and local establishments. Not the national conglomerates we've got today. Most large alcohol brands underwent a revolution in the post-WWII era. Many far more recently than that.

TillE 12y ago
You're putting far too much faith into the contents and completeness of Google's searchable archives. Newspapers and a selection of contemporary books may be a reasonable guide for broad trends and significant events, but in no way can they be relied upon to contain every little detail of the world around them.
- dredmorbius 12y ago
  I'd welcome an alternate credible source which demonstrates an alternate conclusion. Otherwise you're simply hand-waving (along with numerous others here). I have substantiated the general conclusions with a number of other avenues of research. I suspect they're sound.
gaadd33 12y ago
Wouldn't a lot of that be due to globalization? No sense in advertising Remy Martin to people in revolutionary New York when the cost of transporting a bottle there would have been obscene.
- dredmorbius 12y ago
  "Globalization" really wasn't much of a thing in the 1950s. Mass-merchandising, mass-media, a consumer economy, TV and radio advertising, and expendable income were all things, however.
- dredmorbius 12y ago
  More on "globalization" -- late 1990s onward: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=globalization&year_start=1900&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cglobalization%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=globalization&...
  - gaadd33 12y ago
    Wait, are you saying that the concept of "globalization" didn't exist prior to the late 1990s? Most historians seem to agree that it has existed as far back as ancient Greece if not further. If you are just measuring how frequently the word appears in popular usage, I don't see how that really has any bearing on the actual phenomenon. I don't think you are going to dispute that gravity existed and had a major impact prior to 1616 are you? https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=%22gravity%22&year_start=1500&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2C%22%20gravity%20%22%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=%22gravity%22&... (Side note, if you put your search term in quotes it generates totally different results than if it's alone, in any case, I'm pretty sure that gravity existed before it started to take off in the media in the 1650s.)