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> And an "Irish pub" is really a 1990s phenomenon That is an extraordinary conclusion which requires a bit more evidence than you're putting forward. Another

by CPLX 12y ago

> And an "Irish pub" is really a 1990s phenomenon That is an extraordinary conclusion which requires a bit more evidence than you're putting forward. Another interpretation of the data is that the entire idea of a bar, pub, or corner bar was Irish by default until the 90's, when it became necessary to distinguish between different types of bars. As an older fellow, my memory from well before the 90's is that what we think of now as an "Irish Pub" would have just been called "a bar" back in the day.

defen 12y ago
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2006/03/irelands_crack_habit.html http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2006/03/irelan...
michaelt 12y ago
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2006/03/irelands_crack_habit.html http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2006/03/irelan... Ireland, as much of the world knows it, was invented in 1991. That year, the Irish Pub Company formed with a mission to populate the world with authentic Irish bar
- smacktoward 12y ago
  That article manages to make its claim by focusing entirely on Irish pubs in Ireland and completely ignoring Irish-American pubs, which have been flourishing in the United States since before the Civil War. Like McSorley's Old Ale House in NYC, for instance, which has been operating at the same location since at least the 1860s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McSorley%27s_Old_Ale_House http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McSorley%27s_Old_Ale_House). Most Northern cities of any size will have had similar establishments set up at roughly the same time, though it's rare to find one that's been in continuous operation for so long. I would venture to guess that when people think of an "Irish pub," nearly all of what they're thinking of comes out of the Irish-American pub tradition. The program described in the article just takes all that stuff and wraps it into an "official Irish" package that's easy to franchise.
  - dredmorbius 12y ago
    focusing entirely on Irish pubs in Ireland My God! Ireland's annexed Kazakhstan and the Canary Islands?!!!! From TFA: In the last 15 years, Dublin-based IPCo and its competitors have fabricated and installed more than 1,800 watering holes in more than 50 countries. Guinness threw its weight (and that of its global parent Diageo) behind the movement, and an industry was built around the reproduction of "Irishness" on every continent—and even in Ireland itself. IPCo has built 40 ersatz pubs on the Emerald Isle, opening them beside the long-standing establishments on which they were based.
- barrkel 12y ago
  The Irish pub predates that by a long way. In Ireland, that is. As a commercial chain operation exporting an ersatz experience, the early 90s sounds right. But there have been individual establishments with an Irish clientele and atmosphere in most places where a high density of Irish emigrants ended up. See for example Doyle's Cafe in Boston.
  - dredmorbius 12y ago
    Again, my point: if you look at the written record, "Irish Pub" emerges largely as a 1990s thing. The Slate article confirms this by noting the commercialization and corporatization of the concept.
    - DanBC 12y ago
      I had a look at Google Groups. ["irish pub" site:groups.google.com] and then using more tools to select a custom date range of anything before 1995 means you get zero hits, but if you change the date to anything before 1998 you start to get a few hits, but these seem to be "pubs where Irish people drink" rather than "Irish theme pubs". This was surprising to me because I have false memories of "Irish Pubs" (the packaged experience, not pubs with Irish customers) from early 1990. Edit: wait - I should have probably tried this with "Irish bar"?
      - dredmorbius 12y ago
        "Irish Bar" does in fact track far better over time. Though with that notable 1920s uptick: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Irish+Pub%2C+Irish+Bar&case_insensitive=on&year_start=1900&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t4%3B%2CIrish%20Pub%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3BIrish%20pub%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BIrish%20Pub%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BIRISH%20PUB%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2CIrish%20Bar%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3BIrish%20Bar%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BIrish%20bar%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Irish+Pub%2C+I... Actually, its heyday was 1794 - 1886: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Irish+Pub%2CIrish+Bar&case_insensitive=on&year_start=1700&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t4%3B%2CIrish%20Pub%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3BIrish%20pub%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BIrish%20Pub%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BIRISH%20PUB%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2CIrish%20Bar%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3BIrish%20bar%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BIrish%20Bar%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BIRISH%20BAR%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Irish+Pub%2CIr... (And yeah, there's a reason I used URL shorteners earlier.)
- CPLX 12y ago
  Yes, and using precisely the same logic, Starbucks invented the coffee shop.
  - dredmorbius 12y ago
    Slight uptick, but no, your trivially verified premise is in fact false: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=cafe%2Ccaffe%2Ccoffee+shop&year_start=1840&year_end=2014&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Ccafe%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Ccaffe%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Ccoffee%20shop%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=cafe%2Ccaffe%2... Though the pre-1820 popularity of "cafe" is an interesting story itself I'll leave to the enterprising reader: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=cafe&year_start=1500&year_end=1840&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Ccafe%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=cafe&year_star...
rdtsc 12y ago
I believe it. In the little midwest town I was living at the time in the mid 90's "Irish Pubs" started appearing seemingly out of nowhere. Somehow St. Patrick celebrations and "Irish Pride Heritage" was also started to get popular. Even some highschool people who had no Irish heritage decided they wanted to be "Irish". One hung the Irish flag in his room, smoked pipe tobacco, and wore a green kilt to parties. It was Irish-mania.
- dredmorbius 12y ago
  Ngram viewer supports you on "St. Patricks Day" (though "St. Patrick's Day" shows less growth): https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=St.+Patricks+Day&year_start=1900&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CSt.%20Patricks%20Day%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=St.+Patricks+D...

by CPLX 12y ago

defen 12y ago

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2006/03/irelands_crack_habit.html http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2006/03/irelan...

michaelt 12y ago

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2006/03/irelands_crack_habit.html http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2006/03/irelan... Ireland, as much of the world knows it, was invented in 1991. That year, the Irish Pub Company formed with a mission to populate the world with authentic Irish bar

smacktoward 12y ago
That article manages to make its claim by focusing entirely on Irish pubs in Ireland and completely ignoring Irish-American pubs, which have been flourishing in the United States since before the Civil War. Like McSorley's Old Ale House in NYC, for instance, which has been operating at the same location since at least the 1860s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McSorley%27s_Old_Ale_House http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McSorley%27s_Old_Ale_House). Most Northern cities of any size will have had similar establishments set up at roughly the same time, though it's rare to find one that's been in continuous operation for so long. I would venture to guess that when people think of an "Irish pub," nearly all of what they're thinking of comes out of the Irish-American pub tradition. The program described in the article just takes all that stuff and wraps it into an "official Irish" package that's easy to franchise.
- dredmorbius 12y ago
  focusing entirely on Irish pubs in Ireland My God! Ireland's annexed Kazakhstan and the Canary Islands?!!!! From TFA: In the last 15 years, Dublin-based IPCo and its competitors have fabricated and installed more than 1,800 watering holes in more than 50 countries. Guinness threw its weight (and that of its global parent Diageo) behind the movement, and an industry was built around the reproduction of "Irishness" on every continent—and even in Ireland itself. IPCo has built 40 ersatz pubs on the Emerald Isle, opening them beside the long-standing establishments on which they were based.
barrkel 12y ago
The Irish pub predates that by a long way. In Ireland, that is. As a commercial chain operation exporting an ersatz experience, the early 90s sounds right. But there have been individual establishments with an Irish clientele and atmosphere in most places where a high density of Irish emigrants ended up. See for example Doyle's Cafe in Boston.
- dredmorbius 12y ago
  Again, my point: if you look at the written record, "Irish Pub" emerges largely as a 1990s thing. The Slate article confirms this by noting the commercialization and corporatization of the concept.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    I had a look at Google Groups. ["irish pub" site:groups.google.com] and then using more tools to select a custom date range of anything before 1995 means you get zero hits, but if you change the date to anything before 1998 you start to get a few hits, but these seem to be "pubs where Irish people drink" rather than "Irish theme pubs". This was surprising to me because I have false memories of "Irish Pubs" (the packaged experience, not pubs with Irish customers) from early 1990. Edit: wait - I should have probably tried this with "Irish bar"?
    - dredmorbius 12y ago
      "Irish Bar" does in fact track far better over time. Though with that notable 1920s uptick: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Irish+Pub%2C+Irish+Bar&case_insensitive=on&year_start=1900&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t4%3B%2CIrish%20Pub%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3BIrish%20pub%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BIrish%20Pub%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BIRISH%20PUB%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2CIrish%20Bar%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3BIrish%20Bar%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BIrish%20bar%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Irish+Pub%2C+I... Actually, its heyday was 1794 - 1886: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Irish+Pub%2CIrish+Bar&case_insensitive=on&year_start=1700&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t4%3B%2CIrish%20Pub%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3BIrish%20pub%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BIrish%20Pub%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BIRISH%20PUB%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2CIrish%20Bar%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3BIrish%20bar%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BIrish%20Bar%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BIRISH%20BAR%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Irish+Pub%2CIr... (And yeah, there's a reason I used URL shorteners earlier.)
CPLX 12y ago
Yes, and using precisely the same logic, Starbucks invented the coffee shop.
- dredmorbius 12y ago
  Slight uptick, but no, your trivially verified premise is in fact false: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=cafe%2Ccaffe%2Ccoffee+shop&year_start=1840&year_end=2014&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Ccafe%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Ccaffe%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Ccoffee%20shop%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=cafe%2Ccaffe%2... Though the pre-1820 popularity of "cafe" is an interesting story itself I'll leave to the enterprising reader: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=cafe&year_start=1500&year_end=1840&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Ccafe%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=cafe&year_star...

rdtsc 12y ago

I believe it. In the little midwest town I was living at the time in the mid 90's "Irish Pubs" started appearing seemingly out of nowhere. Somehow St. Patrick celebrations and "Irish Pride Heritage" was also started to get popular. Even some highschool people who had no Irish heritage decided they wanted to be "Irish". One hung the Irish flag in his room, smoked pipe tobacco, and wore a green kilt to parties. It was Irish-mania.

dredmorbius 12y ago
Ngram viewer supports you on "St. Patricks Day" (though "St. Patrick's Day" shows less growth): https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=St.+Patricks+Day&year_start=1900&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CSt.%20Patricks%20Day%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=St.+Patricks+D...