4 ms·

We should all be aware of the fact that these people are the enemy. They don't do these things to "protect freedom", they do them to destroy freedom. Most of t

by gnu8 12y ago

We should all be aware of the fact that these people are the enemy. They don't do these things to "protect freedom", they do them to destroy freedom. Most of the people on Hackernews are uniquely placed to resist. Secure your software. Refuse to cooperate unless legally compelled. Analyze and publish any evidence of government attacks. If you work for the NSA, understand this: you aren't American. You are the Internet Daesh. You will lose.

rifung 12y ago
In what way are people who work for the NSA not American? They are literally working to protect American citizens from violence. While you may not agree with their methods, saying you are somehow "more" American than they are, let alone that they aren't American at all is a huge stretch. I think I'm too young and naive to really form a good opinion on what they are doing, but I do know that I definitely haven't done anything I can remember for the sake of this country. Maybe they're being harmful, maybe not, I don't know, but at the very least I like to think they are trying to be helpful.
- rodgerd 12y ago
  > In what way are people who work for the NSA not American? Gee, I missed when HN became a US-only site. > They are literally working to protect American citizens from violence. Really?
- javert 12y ago
  Anyone whose work actively undermines the principles of the US Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution has no moral right to the title "American," though they may be Americans in a legal sense. Ignorance is no excuse, but it is an explanation. I have no doubt that most people at the NSA can accurately claim ignorance. As they say, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."
- brainpan 12y ago
  Outside of the rhetorical zone, outside of the we-can-believe-any-feel-good-idealistic-high-minded-righteous-principles-we-want-as-long-as-we're-just-talking-comfortably zone, this is not true. You know how politicians have a certain style of rhetoric they use when addressing the public? How when they go on talk shows or try to speak about some platform/policy they are tendering to the public, there's this whole pretense of them actually believing in not only that the policy being tendered could work after you elect them and people like them, but also they have these "American" ethics/values, or even sometimes universal ethics, which form their motivation for wanting to be in politics, and wanting to enact policy? I'm asking if you notice the gulf between how politicians speak, and what motives they give you the impression they have, versus how they really feel on the inside. One can say I don't knows how they feel on the inside, yet we've been lied to so many times, and we have seen contradictions between their public rhetoric and their private motivations in the past, that we should actually be considered gullible / abused-victim battered-wives if we take the rhetoric and policy prescriptions for, say, the 2016 elections at face value. I can safely predict that these candidates are pushing policies with a pretense of justice and ethics, yet they are for all literal definitions lying about what they say they believe. I used the sort of politicians you vote for as an example that you should already understand. It shouldn't be controversial that Hillary Clinton and Jeb Bush are actually speaking words from behind a more-electable "persona" that is actually a lie. They effectively "pander" to us by talking about doing things "for America" and "for Americans". We've seen their lies in the past contradicted by their actual actions. Anyway, military and civilian contractors in positions of power in the government need to be understood in this light. "In what way are people who work for the NSA not American?" Simple. No one who is not self-deceived, or deceived by others, works in that way. They are self-interested for the most part. They don't want to help everyone in America; there are millions of people in America they despise. The higher the stakes, the less altruistic they are. Give up your "hard-earned" money in taxes? In private charity? Too high of stakes. They be more likely to help other Americans if the others were "the sort of Americans" they prefer, and they prefer to leave the sort of individuals they don't like, or don't know and don't trust, to fend for themselves. That applies to low-level workers, and it applies also applies to individuals at high levels of power. The fact that individuals at high levels have to use political-style fake rhetoric and personas to be appointed to their contracts and their stations does not mean they actually believe it. What truly motivates them is usually selfish things: attaining more wealth, ownership, control, more agency to mold their personal worlds to their will (cars, country clubs, whatever), and more agency to mold their greater civilization to their will (forcing other people to exist in ways that are more pleasing, or convenient to the powerful). You see, there is no America, in reality. The reality that people fundamentally care about, will care about over the deceptive rhetoric when the chips are down, and that the military serves to exist, is wealth, power, and control. We exist in a planetary civilizaion, but we presently pretend that old national civilizations are what motivate us, even as we take action year-in-and-year-out to further along the globalness of our order: we try to globalize/standardize our finance and governance system over every single individual person in every old nation. So it's global power that motivates the ones in power, and building and preserving their own individual status in the global order that is what they are really beholden to. That is why things like "Homeland Security" and NSA domestic information gathering exist: though the people with their hands on the levers of power here say it's to "protect America," they actually don't love all of America. "When the chips are down, these civilized people will eat each other, you'll see." They can't possibly save all of Americans, and they're building a lockdown-safe domestic order that will treat non-conforming Americans just as poorly as they treat non-conforming non-nationals. They are working to protect themselves from violence, not the "Americans" they pander to. You will be protected precisely to the degree that you endorse and support the global regime, and you will be oppressed precisely to the degree that you resist and combat it. Their professed "to protect America" motive is just a fork-tongued, or sugar-coated, rhetorical device that does not comport to the reality in their own heads when they put their heads down on their silk pillows at night. They are protecting their global economic and political order: corporate power, corporate governance, financialization, ueber alles.
  - quacker 12y ago
    > I'm asking if you notice the gulf between how politicians speak, and what motives they give you the impression they have okay. > No one who is not self-deceived, or deceived by others, works in that way. They are self-interested for the most part. They don't want to help everyone in America wat. maybe you're the one who is self-deceived. how could you even know? > You see, there is no America, in reality. wat > Their professed "to protect America" motive is just a fork-tongued, or sugar-coated, rhetorical device that does not comport to the reality in their own heads wat None of your rambling and incredibly cynical post precludes the idea that a person who works for the NSA can have strong beliefs that are sympathetic with (some portion) of the USA. Or maybe they intend to help out other parts of the world. If you are not too dulled by your own view of things, you should be aware of various crises that have occurred and are occurring around the globe. Accurate and timely information in these events can and will save lives. Why join the NSA? It can be hard to help people when you lack the wealth or resources to support your endeavor and when you lack the power and control to execute. The NSA has all of these. Or maybe they're all terrible people. Maybe they're in it for the thrill. Maybe they have no choice. I don't know. But there's just no way you can be so certain about any of this.
- tomelders 12y ago
  So it's a good thing they're spying on that poster child of terrorist anarchy; Angela Merkel?
  - ars 12y ago
    Why should terrorism be the only reason to spy on someone? Traditionally you spied on your friends to see what they were really thinking vs what they were saying.
tomp 12y ago
> Secure your software. How exactly? Even "safe" languages like Rust are still completely unsafe for very common things like integer overflow.
ars 12y ago
> We should all be aware of the fact that these people are the enemy. By "these people" do you mean the NSA or the other countries? Because your ending making it sound like you might be talking about NSA, but your content makes very little sense if that's what you mean. > They don't do these things to "protect freedom", they do them to destroy freedom. The hell are you talking about? > Analyze and publish any evidence of government attacks. A government attack on another government? What's the problem? That's what the NSA is supposed to do. > If you work for the NSA, understand this: you aren't American. You are the Internet Daesh. You will lose. I think we might need an amendment to Goodwins law. Seriously? You think spying on another country is the same as enslaving and raping children? You need to sit down about think about your mental status that allows you to say (and think) things like this. There is something really twisted in your thinking, and you should try to find out what. This is what the NSA should be doing. It's what I expect them to do. Spy on your own country? Not cool. Spy on another country? Yes - keep it up and do more.
- Cthulhu_ 12y ago
  > Spy on another country? Yes - keep it up and do more. As someone from another country, I'd rather they didn't.
  - ars 12y ago
    I'm sure. But that's still their job. Your best bet is security by unimportance. And if you are important to a foreign intelligence, well, you should expect to be spied on. (And I would expect the reverse from your county WRT spying on me.)

by gnu8 12y ago

rifung 12y ago

In what way are people who work for the NSA not American? They are literally working to protect American citizens from violence. While you may not agree with their methods, saying you are somehow "more" American than they are, let alone that they aren't American at all is a huge stretch. I think I'm too young and naive to really form a good opinion on what they are doing, but I do know that I definitely haven't done anything I can remember for the sake of this country. Maybe they're being harmful, maybe not, I don't know, but at the very least I like to think they are trying to be helpful.

rodgerd 12y ago
> In what way are people who work for the NSA not American? Gee, I missed when HN became a US-only site. > They are literally working to protect American citizens from violence. Really?
javert 12y ago
Anyone whose work actively undermines the principles of the US Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution has no moral right to the title "American," though they may be Americans in a legal sense. Ignorance is no excuse, but it is an explanation. I have no doubt that most people at the NSA can accurately claim ignorance. As they say, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."
brainpan 12y ago
Outside of the rhetorical zone, outside of the we-can-believe-any-feel-good-idealistic-high-minded-righteous-principles-we-want-as-long-as-we're-just-talking-comfortably zone, this is not true. You know how politicians have a certain style of rhetoric they use when addressing the public? How when they go on talk shows or try to speak about some platform/policy they are tendering to the public, there's this whole pretense of them actually believing in not only that the policy being tendered could work after you elect them and people like them, but also they have these "American" ethics/values, or even sometimes universal ethics, which form their motivation for wanting to be in politics, and wanting to enact policy? I'm asking if you notice the gulf between how politicians speak, and what motives they give you the impression they have, versus how they really feel on the inside. One can say I don't knows how they feel on the inside, yet we've been lied to so many times, and we have seen contradictions between their public rhetoric and their private motivations in the past, that we should actually be considered gullible / abused-victim battered-wives if we take the rhetoric and policy prescriptions for, say, the 2016 elections at face value. I can safely predict that these candidates are pushing policies with a pretense of justice and ethics, yet they are for all literal definitions lying about what they say they believe. I used the sort of politicians you vote for as an example that you should already understand. It shouldn't be controversial that Hillary Clinton and Jeb Bush are actually speaking words from behind a more-electable "persona" that is actually a lie. They effectively "pander" to us by talking about doing things "for America" and "for Americans". We've seen their lies in the past contradicted by their actual actions. Anyway, military and civilian contractors in positions of power in the government need to be understood in this light. "In what way are people who work for the NSA not American?" Simple. No one who is not self-deceived, or deceived by others, works in that way. They are self-interested for the most part. They don't want to help everyone in America; there are millions of people in America they despise. The higher the stakes, the less altruistic they are. Give up your "hard-earned" money in taxes? In private charity? Too high of stakes. They be more likely to help other Americans if the others were "the sort of Americans" they prefer, and they prefer to leave the sort of individuals they don't like, or don't know and don't trust, to fend for themselves. That applies to low-level workers, and it applies also applies to individuals at high levels of power. The fact that individuals at high levels have to use political-style fake rhetoric and personas to be appointed to their contracts and their stations does not mean they actually believe it. What truly motivates them is usually selfish things: attaining more wealth, ownership, control, more agency to mold their personal worlds to their will (cars, country clubs, whatever), and more agency to mold their greater civilization to their will (forcing other people to exist in ways that are more pleasing, or convenient to the powerful). You see, there is no America, in reality. The reality that people fundamentally care about, will care about over the deceptive rhetoric when the chips are down, and that the military serves to exist, is wealth, power, and control. We exist in a planetary civilizaion, but we presently pretend that old national civilizations are what motivate us, even as we take action year-in-and-year-out to further along the globalness of our order: we try to globalize/standardize our finance and governance system over every single individual person in every old nation. So it's global power that motivates the ones in power, and building and preserving their own individual status in the global order that is what they are really beholden to. That is why things like "Homeland Security" and NSA domestic information gathering exist: though the people with their hands on the levers of power here say it's to "protect America," they actually don't love all of America. "When the chips are down, these civilized people will eat each other, you'll see." They can't possibly save all of Americans, and they're building a lockdown-safe domestic order that will treat non-conforming Americans just as poorly as they treat non-conforming non-nationals. They are working to protect themselves from violence, not the "Americans" they pander to. You will be protected precisely to the degree that you endorse and support the global regime, and you will be oppressed precisely to the degree that you resist and combat it. Their professed "to protect America" motive is just a fork-tongued, or sugar-coated, rhetorical device that does not comport to the reality in their own heads when they put their heads down on their silk pillows at night. They are protecting their global economic and political order: corporate power, corporate governance, financialization, ueber alles.
- quacker 12y ago
  > I'm asking if you notice the gulf between how politicians speak, and what motives they give you the impression they have okay. > No one who is not self-deceived, or deceived by others, works in that way. They are self-interested for the most part. They don't want to help everyone in America wat. maybe you're the one who is self-deceived. how could you even know? > You see, there is no America, in reality. wat > Their professed "to protect America" motive is just a fork-tongued, or sugar-coated, rhetorical device that does not comport to the reality in their own heads wat None of your rambling and incredibly cynical post precludes the idea that a person who works for the NSA can have strong beliefs that are sympathetic with (some portion) of the USA. Or maybe they intend to help out other parts of the world. If you are not too dulled by your own view of things, you should be aware of various crises that have occurred and are occurring around the globe. Accurate and timely information in these events can and will save lives. Why join the NSA? It can be hard to help people when you lack the wealth or resources to support your endeavor and when you lack the power and control to execute. The NSA has all of these. Or maybe they're all terrible people. Maybe they're in it for the thrill. Maybe they have no choice. I don't know. But there's just no way you can be so certain about any of this.
tomelders 12y ago
So it's a good thing they're spying on that poster child of terrorist anarchy; Angela Merkel?
- ars 12y ago
  Why should terrorism be the only reason to spy on someone? Traditionally you spied on your friends to see what they were really thinking vs what they were saying.

tomp 12y ago

> Secure your software. How exactly? Even "safe" languages like Rust are still completely unsafe for very common things like integer overflow.

ars 12y ago

> We should all be aware of the fact that these people are the enemy. By "these people" do you mean the NSA or the other countries? Because your ending making it sound like you might be talking about NSA, but your content makes very little sense if that's what you mean. > They don't do these things to "protect freedom", they do them to destroy freedom. The hell are you talking about? > Analyze and publish any evidence of government attacks. A government attack on another government? What's the problem? That's what the NSA is supposed to do. > If you work for the NSA, understand this: you aren't American. You are the Internet Daesh. You will lose. I think we might need an amendment to Goodwins law. Seriously? You think spying on another country is the same as enslaving and raping children? You need to sit down about think about your mental status that allows you to say (and think) things like this. There is something really twisted in your thinking, and you should try to find out what. This is what the NSA should be doing. It's what I expect them to do. Spy on your own country? Not cool. Spy on another country? Yes - keep it up and do more.

Cthulhu_ 12y ago
> Spy on another country? Yes - keep it up and do more. As someone from another country, I'd rather they didn't.
- ars 12y ago
  I'm sure. But that's still their job. Your best bet is security by unimportance. And if you are important to a foreign intelligence, well, you should expect to be spied on. (And I would expect the reverse from your county WRT spying on me.)