4 ms·

Honest question, but as a male, what can we do to stop this? I've seen much more subtle things in previous jobs that drive me nuts (men overtalking women in me

by jxm262 12y ago

Honest question, but as a male, what can we do to stop this? I've seen much more subtle things in previous jobs that drive me nuts (men overtalking women in meetings, assigning lower tasks, etc..). It's usually not very overt and when I pick up on it, I usually try to help, but never know how far to go. I'm sorry if I'm derailing the main topic, but after dating a female developer for a while now, I see things in a much different light. This stuff makes me sick; We always talk about how this is a collective industry problem.. but I'm left wondering what I can do about it personally when I see it.

logfromblammo 12y ago
As a male, nothing. I can no more end sexual discrimination at work than I can lower the deductible on the health insurance plan, or increase the match on the 401k. You need leverage to make change happen, and simply being male does not provide any. The culture will not change without some form of advocacy group, such as a professional association or labor union. What you can do alone, as an individual, is to seek alternative employment in a better working environment. Or you could scuttle your career by filing a lawsuit for hostile working environment against your employer. Edit: I can't quite tell if this post is being down-voted for being pro-union or anti-whiteknight, so to be clear, I intended it to be pro-union. Noble intentions are always praiseworthy, even if they are ultimately useless due to a lack of coordination with like-minded individuals.
- oconnore 12y ago
  You're right that no one is going to come up to you with a big red button that you can press. The actual changes that would help are probably more subtle than that (assuming that your workplace is somewhat reasonable -- aka not the scenario discussed in this post). Make sure you don't talk over people or otherwise belittle their contributions. If you see someone else doing that, you can say something like, "hold on, I wanted to hear what A said", or "yeah, isn't that what B just suggested we do?". Etc.
- pc86 12y ago
  I'm not quite sure how a professional association (which typically has little or no bargaining power with employers) or a labor union (which as a primary or secondary effect, makes it harder to fire people, even shit people) would have helped here.
  - logfromblammo 12y ago
    Can you explain how uncoordinated individuals could have helped, given that they have even less bargaining power, and many of them are "at-will" employees and can be fired for any reason, including having an opinion or being married to someone with an opinion? The tactic does not have to be objectively good. It just has to be subjectively better than the status quo. If you can think of something that would be both, please share it.
    - pc86 12y ago
      I never said it would have helped, I'm simply saying I don't see how either of your two suggested solutions (a professional association or a union) could have. I honestly don't see how at-will employment status has anything to do with a VC sexually assaulting a startup founder.
      - logfromblammo 12y ago
        Ancestor post explicitly apologized for being slightly off topic in asking how an individual could effect change within the workplace. Both professional associations and labor unions have historically been successful at influencing workplace conditions within their industries. While that does not guarantee a change for the better with respect to this particular issue, it does imply that such a change is possible. It seems odd to me that an apparent majority of employees agree that sexual harassment/discrimination is unacceptable behavior, and the industry still has a problem with it occurring. I suggest that is because those who oppose it lack the power to enforce their will upon their employers. The other historically effective solution is lobbying for government legislation, but the bad behavior is already illegal when certain lines are crossed, and uniform enforcement is by no means guaranteed. When a person with no money and no power elects to fight someone with both, he will lose, unless he can convince a lot of friends to stand with him. Employers and investors alike have the money advantage. How else would you counter that advantage, if not with superior numbers?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
neilk 12y ago
> I usually try to help, but never know how far to go. As far as you would go to help any male colleagues who were being systematically excluded or bullied. Or farther. There are a number of resources at the Geek Feminism wiki. http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Resources_for_allies#Men:_things_they_can_do.2C_etc http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Resources_for_allies#Men:... I think you might be surprised at how quickly things can change if you do speak up. An extreme example: I used to think that it was a waste of time to tell men not to rape, because obviously a rapist doesn't care about social norms. But here's the weird thing. This result is controversial, but some social scientists have found that rapists think that every man rapes. I bet that $50K sideboob guy probably thinks that every guy with money acts that way. So being vocal about social norms matters more than you would think. When someone is being an asshole to the women in the office he should be socially excluded by the men (instead of the more sadly common outcome, being celebrated for it). Codes of conduct are similarly about stating the obvious sometimes (do we REALLY have to say that this is a safe space for everyone?) but apparently it does send a message. Because so frequently people dismiss a sexist interaction as being a problem between him and her. It should be clear it's also a problem between him and the company. Also, one of the big ways you can affect your workplace is through hiring. Most programmers (at least those influenced by SF hacker culture) participate in hiring their peers.
PaulAJ 12y ago
I agree its the subtle stuff that is a problem. I've sometimes said things along the lines of "Sorry Jane, what were you saying just now?" after Jane has just been talked over. I'm not sure how much it helps though, and I'm nervous in case it comes over wrong if I do it too much. Its a minefield.
nogridbag 12y ago
I've personally worked with zero female, American developers in 10 years of professional programming (I've primarily worked for smaller companies and startups). I don't think much will change unless programming is pushed as a possible career path for young girls early on. In fact, now that I think about it, I've only worked alongside one female American developer total (academically and professionally) and she changed majors after a few weeks in her first year.
- byEngineer 12y ago
  Try getting job at a child care being male. I bet with you that in extremely unlikely event if getting hired you won't last more than a year without one of these not sexist mothers accusing you of pedophilia and you ny friend having your life quite literally destroyed. Now haters go ahead and down vote because you know this is 100% true, so you must down vote it to feel better in your hypocritical mind.
  - thesnider 12y ago
    ...so it's totally fine to not have gender parity in software engineering because the culture that creates that norm also screws up in creating a 'men can't be child care workers' norm as well? Really?
    - byEngineer 12y ago
      yes, really. Are you for equality or special treatment. I mean it. If you are for equality then demand that kids go to fathers in 50% divorce cases. Ask for 50% women military. Ask for obligatory paternity test when a child is born. You don't like your double-standard hypocrisy when I turn the tables, do you? EDIT: "demand" instead of "have"

by jxm262 12y ago

logfromblammo 12y ago

As a male, nothing. I can no more end sexual discrimination at work than I can lower the deductible on the health insurance plan, or increase the match on the 401k. You need leverage to make change happen, and simply being male does not provide any. The culture will not change without some form of advocacy group, such as a professional association or labor union. What you can do alone, as an individual, is to seek alternative employment in a better working environment. Or you could scuttle your career by filing a lawsuit for hostile working environment against your employer. Edit: I can't quite tell if this post is being down-voted for being pro-union or anti-whiteknight, so to be clear, I intended it to be pro-union. Noble intentions are always praiseworthy, even if they are ultimately useless due to a lack of coordination with like-minded individuals.

oconnore 12y ago
You're right that no one is going to come up to you with a big red button that you can press. The actual changes that would help are probably more subtle than that (assuming that your workplace is somewhat reasonable -- aka not the scenario discussed in this post). Make sure you don't talk over people or otherwise belittle their contributions. If you see someone else doing that, you can say something like, "hold on, I wanted to hear what A said", or "yeah, isn't that what B just suggested we do?". Etc.
pc86 12y ago
I'm not quite sure how a professional association (which typically has little or no bargaining power with employers) or a labor union (which as a primary or secondary effect, makes it harder to fire people, even shit people) would have helped here.
- logfromblammo 12y ago
  Can you explain how uncoordinated individuals could have helped, given that they have even less bargaining power, and many of them are "at-will" employees and can be fired for any reason, including having an opinion or being married to someone with an opinion? The tactic does not have to be objectively good. It just has to be subjectively better than the status quo. If you can think of something that would be both, please share it.
  - pc86 12y ago
    I never said it would have helped, I'm simply saying I don't see how either of your two suggested solutions (a professional association or a union) could have. I honestly don't see how at-will employment status has anything to do with a VC sexually assaulting a startup founder.
    - logfromblammo 12y ago
      Ancestor post explicitly apologized for being slightly off topic in asking how an individual could effect change within the workplace. Both professional associations and labor unions have historically been successful at influencing workplace conditions within their industries. While that does not guarantee a change for the better with respect to this particular issue, it does imply that such a change is possible. It seems odd to me that an apparent majority of employees agree that sexual harassment/discrimination is unacceptable behavior, and the industry still has a problem with it occurring. I suggest that is because those who oppose it lack the power to enforce their will upon their employers. The other historically effective solution is lobbying for government legislation, but the bad behavior is already illegal when certain lines are crossed, and uniform enforcement is by no means guaranteed. When a person with no money and no power elects to fight someone with both, he will lose, unless he can convince a lot of friends to stand with him. Employers and investors alike have the money advantage. How else would you counter that advantage, if not with superior numbers?
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

neilk 12y ago

> I usually try to help, but never know how far to go. As far as you would go to help any male colleagues who were being systematically excluded or bullied. Or farther. There are a number of resources at the Geek Feminism wiki. http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Resources_for_allies#Men:_things_they_can_do.2C_etc http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Resources_for_allies#Men:... I think you might be surprised at how quickly things can change if you do speak up. An extreme example: I used to think that it was a waste of time to tell men not to rape, because obviously a rapist doesn't care about social norms. But here's the weird thing. This result is controversial, but some social scientists have found that rapists think that every man rapes. I bet that $50K sideboob guy probably thinks that every guy with money acts that way. So being vocal about social norms matters more than you would think. When someone is being an asshole to the women in the office he should be socially excluded by the men (instead of the more sadly common outcome, being celebrated for it). Codes of conduct are similarly about stating the obvious sometimes (do we REALLY have to say that this is a safe space for everyone?) but apparently it does send a message. Because so frequently people dismiss a sexist interaction as being a problem between him and her. It should be clear it's also a problem between him and the company. Also, one of the big ways you can affect your workplace is through hiring. Most programmers (at least those influenced by SF hacker culture) participate in hiring their peers.

PaulAJ 12y ago

I agree its the subtle stuff that is a problem. I've sometimes said things along the lines of "Sorry Jane, what were you saying just now?" after Jane has just been talked over. I'm not sure how much it helps though, and I'm nervous in case it comes over wrong if I do it too much. Its a minefield.

nogridbag 12y ago

I've personally worked with zero female, American developers in 10 years of professional programming (I've primarily worked for smaller companies and startups). I don't think much will change unless programming is pushed as a possible career path for young girls early on. In fact, now that I think about it, I've only worked alongside one female American developer total (academically and professionally) and she changed majors after a few weeks in her first year.

byEngineer 12y ago
Try getting job at a child care being male. I bet with you that in extremely unlikely event if getting hired you won't last more than a year without one of these not sexist mothers accusing you of pedophilia and you ny friend having your life quite literally destroyed. Now haters go ahead and down vote because you know this is 100% true, so you must down vote it to feel better in your hypocritical mind.
- thesnider 12y ago
  ...so it's totally fine to not have gender parity in software engineering because the culture that creates that norm also screws up in creating a 'men can't be child care workers' norm as well? Really?
  - byEngineer 12y ago
    yes, really. Are you for equality or special treatment. I mean it. If you are for equality then demand that kids go to fathers in 50% divorce cases. Ask for 50% women military. Ask for obligatory paternity test when a child is born. You don't like your double-standard hypocrisy when I turn the tables, do you? EDIT: "demand" instead of "have"