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Since you teach Go -- you probably teach it well, but I thought I'd share my experiences as a Go student who gave up after a couple of years. My problem, and R

Since you teach Go -- you probably teach it well, but I thought I'd share my experiences as a Go student who gave up after a couple of years. My problem, and Raganwald's, is that I can generally read the rules of any new game and, based on those rules, formulate a strategy. I might not expect to win, but I at least have enough understanding of the mechanism of the game that I can pick a direction and run with it. (I was going to say, "that I can play passably well", but that really isn't it at all -- it's the formulation of strategy that's important to me, and, I suspect, Raganwald.) So what happens in Go? Well, you're told the rules, and then you're given a few hints that don't make any sense to you, like the 3-4 stone. Either way, it's impossible to form a strategy. You might as well stand above the board and let stones loose from your fingers to fall randomly upon it. And my teachers, bless their hearts, took it upon themselves to win by extremely large margins repeatedly, which I would not have taken personally if only I had finished each game with the feeling that I had learned something. In the end, I became an "eh" player, but found myself dreading Tuesday night Go club, found it occupying too much of my mind space, and found that it wasn't really giving me anything positive in return. There were very very few long term new recruits in the local club.

enki 17y ago
Well, i've seen this too, not only with Go but with Programming and a whole lot of other things. They're busy showing off how good they are, instead of helping you learn. However, once you know the trick, you don't need anyone to teach you, but just someone you can imitate. Just get them to be quiet and play lots of games with you, or ask them questions when you really need to know something. Be the driver of your own learning, then your teacher's teaching skill matters less.
- seigenblues 17y ago
  one of the stronger players i know did this -- he just played blitz with a 7d over and over and over in a coffeeshop, didn't ask many questions but just imitated first & drew conclusions second.
seigenblues 17y ago
Yeah, your rules->formulate strategy->develop tactical plan->iterate is usually a great approach! Sadly, Go's rules are so simple it's really tough to guess what good strategies are from a reading of the rules. I think this is because so many of the strategic concepts -- power vs. influence, chasing, pincers, leaning attacks, etc., are the emergent properties of tactical features -- eyes, life & death, ko fights -- which are themselves emergent from an unbelievably simple ruleset. It's similar to looking at DNA and figuring out protein shapes. It's just CGAT, how hard could it be? Relatedly: So i've heard of two different ways to teach go -- the Eastern way and the Western way. The western way is to be told the Rules, the Object, and the Strategy and Tactics that will get you there. The eastern way (this is hearsay) is that a teacher shows you the rules -- and then leaves you to memorize 50 games in their entirety, on your own. For someone who's done all his learning the western way, my first reaction to the eastern way was "that's stupid." What's not said in the eastern way is that you learn in reverse. First you have to puzzle out the Tactics -- why did they do this and not this? Why did they take 10 seconds for these 5 moves and 5 minutes for this one? Then you can start to figure out the strategies and feel the flow of the game. Then, maybe -- only maybe -- can you then guess at the actual object of the game. After memorizing 50 games, then a teacher might actually help you. How dumb! how silly! And yet, this way, the teacher already knows that the student is willing to work. Anyway, that kind of rambled. I'm sorry you had bad teachers. There's lots of them, probably myself included. Go is really, really hard to teach. I still don't know what the object is, just how to count the score at the end...
- thaumaturgy 17y ago
  One of the difficulties for me here is that I have extremely poor long-term memory, probably due to extended (and now habitual) sleep deprivation. I simply cannot commit a large enough number of games and sequences to memory. I do however have a better-than-average working memory, which allows me to compensate in most games by visualizing lots of different game sequences simultaneously. Go is not one of those games.
  - seigenblues 17y ago
    I'm with you. I know people who can remember every game they've played and i'm just not one of them. I learned "the western way" myself. I've noticed, though, that i don't remember the recurring patterns or sequences, i just kind of feel them. It sounds weird, but your brain gets quite good at the pattern recognition if you let it. I would say that being able to visualize lots of different game sequences is crucial in go to learning tactics. You'll do great! Give it another shot :D

enki 17y ago

Well, i've seen this too, not only with Go but with Programming and a whole lot of other things. They're busy showing off how good they are, instead of helping you learn. However, once you know the trick, you don't need anyone to teach you, but just someone you can imitate. Just get them to be quiet and play lots of games with you, or ask them questions when you really need to know something. Be the driver of your own learning, then your teacher's teaching skill matters less.

seigenblues 17y ago
one of the stronger players i know did this -- he just played blitz with a 7d over and over and over in a coffeeshop, didn't ask many questions but just imitated first & drew conclusions second.

seigenblues 17y ago

Yeah, your rules->formulate strategy->develop tactical plan->iterate is usually a great approach! Sadly, Go's rules are so simple it's really tough to guess what good strategies are from a reading of the rules. I think this is because so many of the strategic concepts -- power vs. influence, chasing, pincers, leaning attacks, etc., are the emergent properties of tactical features -- eyes, life & death, ko fights -- which are themselves emergent from an unbelievably simple ruleset. It's similar to looking at DNA and figuring out protein shapes. It's just CGAT, how hard could it be? Relatedly: So i've heard of two different ways to teach go -- the Eastern way and the Western way. The western way is to be told the Rules, the Object, and the Strategy and Tactics that will get you there. The eastern way (this is hearsay) is that a teacher shows you the rules -- and then leaves you to memorize 50 games in their entirety, on your own. For someone who's done all his learning the western way, my first reaction to the eastern way was "that's stupid." What's not said in the eastern way is that you learn in reverse. First you have to puzzle out the Tactics -- why did they do this and not this? Why did they take 10 seconds for these 5 moves and 5 minutes for this one? Then you can start to figure out the strategies and feel the flow of the game. Then, maybe -- only maybe -- can you then guess at the actual object of the game. After memorizing 50 games, then a teacher might actually help you. How dumb! how silly! And yet, this way, the teacher already knows that the student is willing to work. Anyway, that kind of rambled. I'm sorry you had bad teachers. There's lots of them, probably myself included. Go is really, really hard to teach. I still don't know what the object is, just how to count the score at the end...

thaumaturgy 17y ago
One of the difficulties for me here is that I have extremely poor long-term memory, probably due to extended (and now habitual) sleep deprivation. I simply cannot commit a large enough number of games and sequences to memory. I do however have a better-than-average working memory, which allows me to compensate in most games by visualizing lots of different game sequences simultaneously. Go is not one of those games.
- seigenblues 17y ago
  I'm with you. I know people who can remember every game they've played and i'm just not one of them. I learned "the western way" myself. I've noticed, though, that i don't remember the recurring patterns or sequences, i just kind of feel them. It sounds weird, but your brain gets quite good at the pattern recognition if you let it. I would say that being able to visualize lots of different game sequences is crucial in go to learning tactics. You'll do great! Give it another shot :D