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> The claim that physics plays that special role within philosophy is itself a philosophical claim. If you want to justify it you'll have to study some philosop

by stolio 12y ago

> The claim that physics plays that special role within philosophy is itself a philosophical claim. If you want to justify it you'll have to study some philosophy! Only if I want to justify it to philosophers, but since I'm more interested in understanding the world I live in I'll just continue in my ignorance. > More generally, your attitude is one that's typical of physicists these days, who tend to approach the philosophical literature with a huge superiority complex. That's a bit rich. It is funny how the "other side" always looks a little ridiculous. > With enough time science washes all of those things away. That's not an attitude that was shared by the 20th century's greatest physicists. Even if that wasn't an exaggeration, so what? Newton was an alchemist. Maxwell was a Christian. Oppenheimer and Schroedinger studied eastern philosophy. A lot of physicists have liked western philosophy. What I haven't seen is evidence that makes me think wow, studying philosophy really payed off for those guys I should do that too! Instead it looks like another idiosyncracy.

foldr 12y ago
I think your views on philosophy are, for reasons that I don't entirely understand, too strong to be changed. If you're not willing to give the subject a chance, then of course you will never see any value in it. But simply dismissing the subject while knowing nothing about it does reflect a superiority complex of a certain sort. One that modern physicists constantly feel the need to reinforce by pissing all over "lesser" disciplines.
- stolio 12y ago
  Are you really unaware of how rude philosophers are to pretty much everybody? Just because the insults are often shrouded in intellectualism it doesn't make it any less disrespectful. Science has some jerks, too, but I'd take them over philosophy's jerks any day of the week. And I do call out the science jerks because of how unproductive it is. Take reddit for example. Look at the ratio of r/badphilosophy subscribers to r/philosophy (8,800/2,300,000 = .0038) vs. the ratio or r/badscience to r/science (5,600/7,500,000 = .00075). A given subscriber to r/philosophy is 20x as likely as their r/science counterpart to dedicate a portion of their time to chastising and bullying their "inferiors." Worse, 10 of 13 r/philosophy moderators are also mods of r/badphilosophy so the two are intimately connected. Zero of the r/science mods are mods of r/badscience. At least on reddit it's philosophers who are the bullies. Clearly there are problems of selection bias here, but these are also communities measured in the millions. If this isn't representative of the field of philosophy as a whole I don't know what to say because they are representing you to the 15+ million people who visit the site each month. (edit: really gonna downvote this literally before it's even a minute old? Par for the course I suppose...)
  - foldr 12y ago
    You're talking about reddit. I thought we were talking about academic work in philosophy.
    - stolio 12y ago
      > And sure, some of these philosophers don't always know as much about the physics as they should, but their ignorance in this respect is usually nothing in comparison to modern physicists' ignorance of philosophy. . > "More generally, your attitude is one that's typical of physicists these days, who tend to approach the philosophical literature with a huge superiority complex. " . > But simply dismissing the subject while knowing nothing about it does reflect a superiority complex of a certain sort. One that modern physicists constantly feel the need to reinforce by pissing all over "lesser" disciplines. You asserted physicists in general are intellectual bullies and I took the time to grab a sample of science and philosophy enthusiasts (that measures in the millions) for my retort: that's the pot calling the kettle black. This is why it's so frustrating to deal with philosophers: you already set a precedent that Krauss' random musings on philosophy are enough to base arguments on but when the tables are turned you want to change the rules. When Krauss is getting in fights with philosophers that isn't his "academic work in physics" and you know it. If anything you're attacking the culture of physics but it seems you're only willing to compare it to the academic output of philosophy. The way I see it, compare culture to culture and academic work to academic work. I recognize that within the culture of physics philosophy gets little respect, I'll even argue as to why that should be the case. But in general I think philosophers are more disrespectful of other fields than physicists.
      - foldr 12y ago
        There's a difference between science and philosophy enthusiasts and scientists and philosophers. People on reddit are rude to each other all the time; that doesn't show anything. Actually you won't find many philosophers who are disrespectful of physics even outside their academic work. The sneering goes mostly in the other direction (due to the aforementioned superiority complex).
deleted 12y ago
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by stolio 12y ago

foldr 12y ago

I think your views on philosophy are, for reasons that I don't entirely understand, too strong to be changed. If you're not willing to give the subject a chance, then of course you will never see any value in it. But simply dismissing the subject while knowing nothing about it does reflect a superiority complex of a certain sort. One that modern physicists constantly feel the need to reinforce by pissing all over "lesser" disciplines.

stolio 12y ago
Are you really unaware of how rude philosophers are to pretty much everybody? Just because the insults are often shrouded in intellectualism it doesn't make it any less disrespectful. Science has some jerks, too, but I'd take them over philosophy's jerks any day of the week. And I do call out the science jerks because of how unproductive it is. Take reddit for example. Look at the ratio of r/badphilosophy subscribers to r/philosophy (8,800/2,300,000 = .0038) vs. the ratio or r/badscience to r/science (5,600/7,500,000 = .00075). A given subscriber to r/philosophy is 20x as likely as their r/science counterpart to dedicate a portion of their time to chastising and bullying their "inferiors." Worse, 10 of 13 r/philosophy moderators are also mods of r/badphilosophy so the two are intimately connected. Zero of the r/science mods are mods of r/badscience. At least on reddit it's philosophers who are the bullies. Clearly there are problems of selection bias here, but these are also communities measured in the millions. If this isn't representative of the field of philosophy as a whole I don't know what to say because they are representing you to the 15+ million people who visit the site each month. (edit: really gonna downvote this literally before it's even a minute old? Par for the course I suppose...)
- foldr 12y ago
  You're talking about reddit. I thought we were talking about academic work in philosophy.
  - stolio 12y ago
    > And sure, some of these philosophers don't always know as much about the physics as they should, but their ignorance in this respect is usually nothing in comparison to modern physicists' ignorance of philosophy. . > "More generally, your attitude is one that's typical of physicists these days, who tend to approach the philosophical literature with a huge superiority complex. " . > But simply dismissing the subject while knowing nothing about it does reflect a superiority complex of a certain sort. One that modern physicists constantly feel the need to reinforce by pissing all over "lesser" disciplines. You asserted physicists in general are intellectual bullies and I took the time to grab a sample of science and philosophy enthusiasts (that measures in the millions) for my retort: that's the pot calling the kettle black. This is why it's so frustrating to deal with philosophers: you already set a precedent that Krauss' random musings on philosophy are enough to base arguments on but when the tables are turned you want to change the rules. When Krauss is getting in fights with philosophers that isn't his "academic work in physics" and you know it. If anything you're attacking the culture of physics but it seems you're only willing to compare it to the academic output of philosophy. The way I see it, compare culture to culture and academic work to academic work. I recognize that within the culture of physics philosophy gets little respect, I'll even argue as to why that should be the case. But in general I think philosophers are more disrespectful of other fields than physicists.
    - foldr 12y ago
      There's a difference between science and philosophy enthusiasts and scientists and philosophers. People on reddit are rude to each other all the time; that doesn't show anything. Actually you won't find many philosophers who are disrespectful of physics even outside their academic work. The sneering goes mostly in the other direction (due to the aforementioned superiority complex).

deleted 12y ago

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