4 ms·

Notably, the men at the bottom are considered failures for failing to acquire a wife. That's also one of those things that feminism takes issue with. Poor males

Notably, the men at the bottom are considered failures for failing to acquire a wife. That's also one of those things that feminism takes issue with. Poor males are not saints; they just aren't in a position to actually change the overall status quo. If wife acquisition stopped being an indicator of success in China, you'd have a lot fewer men being considered at the bottom.

erikb 12y ago
That's an interesting view. My English is not so good. What I meant was that getting a wife is the result of being successful for the Chinese guys I know. If you have a stable job, an apartment and a car you are quite likely to get a wife. But there are many people applying for the jobs, and cars/apartments are more expensive than in the west. Or was your comment linked to that in some way?
- saraid216 12y ago
  That isn't congruous to what I know. From what I've seen and heard, getting a wife was the goal, and since women had actual choices, they'd be choosing someone with a stable job, apartment, etc., so the men feel compelled to get those things. They're not accidentally tripping over wives; they're actively seeking them out.
  - erikb 12y ago
    That's interesting. From what I've seen I would guess that Chinese women seek marriage partners above else, but Chinese men choose financial success above else. Losing a wife to get rich is okay for them. But failing to get a car and house can not be compensated by having a wife. I would agree that marriage is more important to Chinese men than to western men. The idea of marriage is also different, though.
alextgordon 12y ago
Wife acquisition will continue to be a measure of success so long as China's sex ratio at birth is 1.1 men to every woman. No wife means not only a lonely existence, but also no children to care for you in your old age. If that isn't failure, I don't know what is.
- Omniusaspirer 12y ago
  >No wife means not only a lonely existence, but also no children to care for you in your old age. If that isn't failure, I don't know what is. This line of thinking just seems juvenile to me. Do you really believe the pinnacle of human achievement (and the only one that matters) is being in a long term relationship and having children?
  - saraid216 12y ago
    You're actually giving him too much credit. Speaking as someone whose family has the same values, "having children" isn't enough. They have to be obedient and willing to care for you in your old age. Success, in these terms, is breeding future slaves for your twilight years. The academic term for this is "filial piety". It also includes things like guilting your children for all the things you forced them into doing, such as learning the violin or piano. To state the obvious, I am kinda disagreeable to this presumption. Similarly, he's not just talking about a "long term relationship", but a much more economic arrangement where one's wife fulfills your needs for companionship and breeding in return for the bread you win. Unsurprisingly, this is something that many modern Chinese women have started balking at.
  - wtbob 12y ago
    > Do you really believe the pinnacle of human achievement (and the only one that matters) is being in a long term relationship and having children? Can anyone with any sense of Darwinian evolution not believe that having children is the goal of life? Can anyone with any emotional sense at all not believe that a lasting relationship with another is not the highest of pursuits?
    - saraid216 12y ago
      Yes and yes. I'm personally far more interested in passing down a cultural legacy than squirting my genes into an egg, and I'm more inclined towards raising the average happiness of the world than just a single relationship. The funny thing about belief is that it doesn't necessarily extend from basic facts like having read the same book.

erikb 12y ago

That's an interesting view. My English is not so good. What I meant was that getting a wife is the result of being successful for the Chinese guys I know. If you have a stable job, an apartment and a car you are quite likely to get a wife. But there are many people applying for the jobs, and cars/apartments are more expensive than in the west. Or was your comment linked to that in some way?

saraid216 12y ago
That isn't congruous to what I know. From what I've seen and heard, getting a wife was the goal, and since women had actual choices, they'd be choosing someone with a stable job, apartment, etc., so the men feel compelled to get those things. They're not accidentally tripping over wives; they're actively seeking them out.
- erikb 12y ago
  That's interesting. From what I've seen I would guess that Chinese women seek marriage partners above else, but Chinese men choose financial success above else. Losing a wife to get rich is okay for them. But failing to get a car and house can not be compensated by having a wife. I would agree that marriage is more important to Chinese men than to western men. The idea of marriage is also different, though.

alextgordon 12y ago

Wife acquisition will continue to be a measure of success so long as China's sex ratio at birth is 1.1 men to every woman. No wife means not only a lonely existence, but also no children to care for you in your old age. If that isn't failure, I don't know what is.

Omniusaspirer 12y ago
>No wife means not only a lonely existence, but also no children to care for you in your old age. If that isn't failure, I don't know what is. This line of thinking just seems juvenile to me. Do you really believe the pinnacle of human achievement (and the only one that matters) is being in a long term relationship and having children?
- saraid216 12y ago
  You're actually giving him too much credit. Speaking as someone whose family has the same values, "having children" isn't enough. They have to be obedient and willing to care for you in your old age. Success, in these terms, is breeding future slaves for your twilight years. The academic term for this is "filial piety". It also includes things like guilting your children for all the things you forced them into doing, such as learning the violin or piano. To state the obvious, I am kinda disagreeable to this presumption. Similarly, he's not just talking about a "long term relationship", but a much more economic arrangement where one's wife fulfills your needs for companionship and breeding in return for the bread you win. Unsurprisingly, this is something that many modern Chinese women have started balking at.
- wtbob 12y ago
  > Do you really believe the pinnacle of human achievement (and the only one that matters) is being in a long term relationship and having children? Can anyone with any sense of Darwinian evolution not believe that having children is the goal of life? Can anyone with any emotional sense at all not believe that a lasting relationship with another is not the highest of pursuits?
  - saraid216 12y ago
    Yes and yes. I'm personally far more interested in passing down a cultural legacy than squirting my genes into an egg, and I'm more inclined towards raising the average happiness of the world than just a single relationship. The funny thing about belief is that it doesn't necessarily extend from basic facts like having read the same book.