6 ms·

Anyone know what the equivalent standards are for the UK? Perspective: the average gross salary here is between £25-30k or around $46k max. $125k or £80k is se

by joshvm 12y ago

Anyone know what the equivalent standards are for the UK? Perspective: the average gross salary here is between £25-30k or around $46k max. $125k or £80k is senior staff pay in most organisations. Even among general engineering positions (not necessarily coding), a 'good' salary here is £35-40k. From what Google tells me it looks like wages top out at around £50k for experienced devs.

shubb 12y ago
Outside startup in the UK, experienced developers outside London get 40-60K, with very talented ones getting more. However, plenty of decent experienced developers also get less than that. Salaries are pretty random when it comes down to it. In my network, I also see fresh graduates getting hired on anything from 18K to 35K, and I'm thinking of one who just settled for 18K after a 6 month job hunt and one interview who I'd rate among the better ones.
justincormack 12y ago
I only know London, but senior people get more than £50k. It is slightly confused by finance, which pays much more, and people who contract - lots of companies pay little for permanent staff but pay £500 a day for long term contractors, which makes no sense, as if they upped their permanent rates they could hire good people instead.
- twic 12y ago
  This is for established companies rather than startups, right? My experience here has been the same - as a good developer with several years experience, it wasn't hard finding offers at 65k from big tech firms (plus substantial but slow-vesting stock in one case). I spoke to a couple of startups, and they didn't want to pay that much, but I would guess that they could have done 55k. If I went contracting, I think I'd be looking for 550-600 a day.
- nvarsj 12y ago
  It makes some sense. Overhead of a permanent employee in UK is pretty high. I've heard estimates as high as 50% of base salary, maybe more. On top of that are the usual perks, 3 months notice, and an onerous process to get you fired. Once permie, you're basically guaranteed employment unless your company goes broke. Compare that to the contractor. There is virtually no overhead for the company. They claim VAT, and expense your rate. And it's very easy to get rid of you, or hire you. A company can ramp up and ramp down as the need arises for new projects - which has a lot of appeal. It's interesting for me coming from the U.S.. I think it's largely a result of the regulation. An at-will permanent employee system, like in the US, seems to benefit in-demand professions a lot more than the UK/EU regulated system.
  - justincormack 12y ago
    The 50% is not direct per staff costs, it includes all overheads like office space. Direct costs are more like 15%. Almost all contracts are 1 month notice. Getting rid of people is not hard, have been through the process a few times, you just need to know what to do.
  - ionwake 12y ago
    . An at-will permanent employee system Hi can you explain what you mean - great post but dont quite understand your last paragraph...
    - sentrote 12y ago
      Many Americans have almost no job security, you can be sacked at any time without a reason. I'm only aware of it through HN etc; so I'll just point you to Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
  - walshemj 12y ago
    Take it from me in the UK It's not hard to fire some one "for cause" don't believe all you read in the Daily Mail. And the NHS helps flexibility as there is no down side to working for a start up if you or your family have health issues. IR 35 really hit contractors hard in the It industry so you cant do most IT contracts as a personal company - you have to go for an Umbrella company
  - illumen 12y ago
    Also bonuses. They can easily be salary in London.
- laurencerowe 12y ago
  There are several reasons contracting is a popular route in the UK for techies: 1. Tax advantages, the 13.8% employer's payroll tax is avoided by be being employed as a contractor and taking your income as a dividend. 2. Tech career ladders are pretty specific to the tech industry and London just doesn't have the medium and large tech companies you see in Silicon Valley. So you hit the ceiling pretty fast and in order to be valued for your skills you pretty much have to become a contractor. This is not so different to working in tech in a non-tech organisation in the US. 3. The National Health Service means you and your family are not reliant on your employer for health insurance. Individual health insurance is super expensive in the USA. Most people I know who contract in the US have health insurance through their spouse's employer. I ended up moving to CA because of the career opportunities. I'd probably be better off contracting in the finance world in London, but most of that work just isn't very interesting.
sz4kerto 12y ago
In the City, good skills 5-10 years of experience yields you something around GBP 70-100k base + some bonus (0-60k depending on how good the year was).
- sentrote 12y ago
  Thanks, that's really useful to know — I'll be looking for a new job very soon, and I'm massively out of touch with what's normal. I've 6 years experience at a scientific charity, but I only get paid £35k. It's interesting work, but since December I've been in a "team" of one — not fun. Pay is very inflexible — £70k is more than my manager's manager is paid.
  - mcjiggerlog 12y ago
    Remember that working in The City also means you'll need to sell your soul. I started off there and hated everything - work-life balance, the culture, the work - some seem to enjoy the money but to me it's not worth it.
    - walshemj 12y ago
      Well it might come as a shock but some the "worst" employers are charities, notorious for bullying and stress at work. Btw this is direct from a course I had to do on handling serious work place issues ie ones that would end up in court.
  - Swannie 12y ago
    Getting a job in the City requires you have a job in the City. There are two normal routes into the City if you don't have an amazing CV - knowing someone, or working for a non-City firm on City projects (e.g. Accenture, KPMG, or many of the 100s of smaller financial services specialist companies.) Also note, not all City jobs are created equal, and many are worse than typical London IT jobs, with only marginally better pay and significantly larger expectations on hours, out of hours work, etc.
throwaway171 12y ago
Another random datapoint, recently interviewed at a couple well-funded startups in London, got offers around £70k for senior developer (not lead) positions. I have ~6 years experience, all startups, and am not a rockstar. It is surprisingly hard to figure out your value in the UK tech scene. I suggest looking for tech-oriented companies with healthy balance sheets and asking for as high a number as you can without blushing and see what happens.

by joshvm 12y ago

shubb 12y ago

Outside startup in the UK, experienced developers outside London get 40-60K, with very talented ones getting more. However, plenty of decent experienced developers also get less than that. Salaries are pretty random when it comes down to it. In my network, I also see fresh graduates getting hired on anything from 18K to 35K, and I'm thinking of one who just settled for 18K after a 6 month job hunt and one interview who I'd rate among the better ones.

justincormack 12y ago

I only know London, but senior people get more than £50k. It is slightly confused by finance, which pays much more, and people who contract - lots of companies pay little for permanent staff but pay £500 a day for long term contractors, which makes no sense, as if they upped their permanent rates they could hire good people instead.

twic 12y ago
This is for established companies rather than startups, right? My experience here has been the same - as a good developer with several years experience, it wasn't hard finding offers at 65k from big tech firms (plus substantial but slow-vesting stock in one case). I spoke to a couple of startups, and they didn't want to pay that much, but I would guess that they could have done 55k. If I went contracting, I think I'd be looking for 550-600 a day.
nvarsj 12y ago
It makes some sense. Overhead of a permanent employee in UK is pretty high. I've heard estimates as high as 50% of base salary, maybe more. On top of that are the usual perks, 3 months notice, and an onerous process to get you fired. Once permie, you're basically guaranteed employment unless your company goes broke. Compare that to the contractor. There is virtually no overhead for the company. They claim VAT, and expense your rate. And it's very easy to get rid of you, or hire you. A company can ramp up and ramp down as the need arises for new projects - which has a lot of appeal. It's interesting for me coming from the U.S.. I think it's largely a result of the regulation. An at-will permanent employee system, like in the US, seems to benefit in-demand professions a lot more than the UK/EU regulated system.
- justincormack 12y ago
  The 50% is not direct per staff costs, it includes all overheads like office space. Direct costs are more like 15%. Almost all contracts are 1 month notice. Getting rid of people is not hard, have been through the process a few times, you just need to know what to do.
- ionwake 12y ago
  . An at-will permanent employee system Hi can you explain what you mean - great post but dont quite understand your last paragraph...
  - sentrote 12y ago
    Many Americans have almost no job security, you can be sacked at any time without a reason. I'm only aware of it through HN etc; so I'll just point you to Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
- walshemj 12y ago
  Take it from me in the UK It's not hard to fire some one "for cause" don't believe all you read in the Daily Mail. And the NHS helps flexibility as there is no down side to working for a start up if you or your family have health issues. IR 35 really hit contractors hard in the It industry so you cant do most IT contracts as a personal company - you have to go for an Umbrella company
- illumen 12y ago
  Also bonuses. They can easily be salary in London.
laurencerowe 12y ago
There are several reasons contracting is a popular route in the UK for techies: 1. Tax advantages, the 13.8% employer's payroll tax is avoided by be being employed as a contractor and taking your income as a dividend. 2. Tech career ladders are pretty specific to the tech industry and London just doesn't have the medium and large tech companies you see in Silicon Valley. So you hit the ceiling pretty fast and in order to be valued for your skills you pretty much have to become a contractor. This is not so different to working in tech in a non-tech organisation in the US. 3. The National Health Service means you and your family are not reliant on your employer for health insurance. Individual health insurance is super expensive in the USA. Most people I know who contract in the US have health insurance through their spouse's employer. I ended up moving to CA because of the career opportunities. I'd probably be better off contracting in the finance world in London, but most of that work just isn't very interesting.

sz4kerto 12y ago

In the City, good skills 5-10 years of experience yields you something around GBP 70-100k base + some bonus (0-60k depending on how good the year was).

sentrote 12y ago
Thanks, that's really useful to know — I'll be looking for a new job very soon, and I'm massively out of touch with what's normal. I've 6 years experience at a scientific charity, but I only get paid £35k. It's interesting work, but since December I've been in a "team" of one — not fun. Pay is very inflexible — £70k is more than my manager's manager is paid.
- mcjiggerlog 12y ago
  Remember that working in The City also means you'll need to sell your soul. I started off there and hated everything - work-life balance, the culture, the work - some seem to enjoy the money but to me it's not worth it.
  - walshemj 12y ago
    Well it might come as a shock but some the "worst" employers are charities, notorious for bullying and stress at work. Btw this is direct from a course I had to do on handling serious work place issues ie ones that would end up in court.
- Swannie 12y ago
  Getting a job in the City requires you have a job in the City. There are two normal routes into the City if you don't have an amazing CV - knowing someone, or working for a non-City firm on City projects (e.g. Accenture, KPMG, or many of the 100s of smaller financial services specialist companies.) Also note, not all City jobs are created equal, and many are worse than typical London IT jobs, with only marginally better pay and significantly larger expectations on hours, out of hours work, etc.

throwaway171 12y ago

Another random datapoint, recently interviewed at a couple well-funded startups in London, got offers around £70k for senior developer (not lead) positions. I have ~6 years experience, all startups, and am not a rockstar. It is surprisingly hard to figure out your value in the UK tech scene. I suggest looking for tech-oriented companies with healthy balance sheets and asking for as high a number as you can without blushing and see what happens.