7 ms·

>110k is double the median salary for California This is irrelevant to the discussion. Startups aren't hiring cashiers and fry cooks. Engineers make more than

>110k is double the median salary for California This is irrelevant to the discussion. Startups aren't hiring cashiers and fry cooks. Engineers make more than the median.

AndrewKemendo 12y ago
Right, double seems totally reasonable for your median dev with a couple years experience.
- 300bps 12y ago
  Right, double seems totally reasonable for your median dev with a couple years experience. Well fortunately we don't have to decide salaries based on what a founder's self-serving definition of "totally reasonable" is. Instead, we have a well functioning market that finds efficient salaries. (That is, when large tech companies aren't colluding to artificially lower salaries through illegal no-poaching agreements).
  - AndrewKemendo 12y ago
    Well fortunately we don't have to decide salaries based on what a founder's self-serving definition of "totally reasonable" is Except that's not the case. Those numbers are what the market is signaling and apparently the OP doesn't like it. That's my point. The OP is saying, the market isn't offering enough. I say, well apparently it is otherwise it would be higher. So it much be good enough for most people.
    - 300bps 12y ago
      I think you might be making the classic mistake of thinking the market is equal to what people advertise on the Internet. As I've heard a million times on Pawn Stars, "Anyone can ask for anything on the Internet. What are they selling for?" I work in Delaware and $110k per year salary for software engineers would be an average salary for someone with some experience. According to a cost of living calculator, someone making $110k per year in Wilmington, DE would need to make $170k per year in San Francisco for the same standard of living.
      - TheCoelacanth 12y ago
        San Francisco has the "sun tax" which means that salaries don't keep up with the cost of living. Its climate is much more pleasant than Delaware so people are willing to sacrifice financially to live there. That results in a lower ratio of average salary to cost of living.
        jessaustin 12y ago
        There's no accounting for taste... If anything I would say Delaware's climate is better. Sure they get an occasional snow, but it actually gets warm enough in summer to wear shorts, and they don't have so much fog... Also when it's sunny many people like to go to the beach and swim in the ocean. For water temps above 62 F, don't go to SF.
- bendmorris 12y ago
  Reasonable or not, that's market salary for engineers where I live, roughly double the median salary across all jobs. It matters less what you think is reasonable and more what competing companies are willing to pay me.
  - AndrewKemendo 12y ago
    It matters less what you think is reasonable and more what competing companies are willing to pay me. Right, and apparently it's $60-110K, which is my point.
    - bendmorris 12y ago
      That's what startups are willing to pay. It's not competitive when considering non-startup work opportunities, which is OP's point.
      - AndrewKemendo 12y ago
        It's not competitive when considering non-startup work opportunities You seem to think these are different markets - it's the same. If people are choosing them then apparently it is competitive. It may just not be what people think they should be making. Developers should actually expect lower wages because there are more market entrants. The whole push for everyone to learn to code, almost 100% pushed for by developers, would have exactly that effect. This is why I think it's silly when the dev community pushes back on organizing as though it's going to stay a sellers market forever - especially as they push the idea (rightfully so) that being a developer/engineer is a great job and drive people into the market.
        cbr 12y ago
        I like that my wages are high, but I don't like that lots of other people don't have good economic options. If my wages go down because more people learn to code and it becomes less of a sellers market, I'd consider that a good outcome. Organizing to keep new coders out would just help existing coders relative to everyone else, and as a whole we're a group that's relatively well off.
- mbesto 12y ago
  I think the OPs point is that the median salary of CA is totally irrelevant to the discussion and framing it against that is rather myopic. A mechanic working in a car shop doesn't produce the same economic value an engineer working at the "next big Facebook startup" does. There's a reason there was a lawsuit against fixing wages for these companies.[0] [0] - http://time.com/76655/google-apple-settle-wage-fixing-lawsuit/ http://time.com/76655/google-apple-settle-wage-fixing-lawsui...
  - AndrewKemendo 12y ago
    A mechanic working in a car shop doesn't produce the same economic value an engineer working at the "next big Facebook startup" does Talk about myopic. Apply your calculus in year 2000 and you'll see the folly there. That is insulting to everyone else making lower wages and assumes that "value" is accurately assigned. You telling me a Nurse or teacher provides less value than a dev working for a Startup that dispatches food quicker? Please make that argument for me because this idea is what is wrong with SV.
    - tdfx 12y ago
      He said "economic value", which is much easier to quantify than the subjective value you seem to be evaluating.
    - iopq 12y ago
      A teacher teaches a class of 30. An engineer at an education startup will create a product that teaches millions over its existence.
      - kaitai 12y ago
        A first-grade teacher provides role models for students, talks to parents, connects kids with social services, talks now and then to child protection, might make sure her students have coats in the winter, etc. An education startup creates a product that might provide information and feedback for the millions of people who get to use it in its existence. Don't get me wrong: I'm working on such products now. I love it. I don't have to deal with discipline problems or students' home lives. It's a different job and the products are not comparable.
loumf 12y ago
I wrote about how to research labor statistics on salary here: http://www.greenwave-solutions.com/getting-labor-data-about-software-developers/ http://www.greenwave-solutions.com/getting-labor-data-about-... SV median salary for software development jobs (loosely defined) was about $122k in 2014. SF was about $110.
mahyarm 12y ago
The cost of living in california also varies widely!

>110k is double the median salary for California This is irrelevant to the discussion. Startups aren't hiring cashiers and fry cooks. Engineers make more than the median.

AndrewKemendo 12y ago

Right, double seems totally reasonable for your median dev with a couple years experience.

300bps 12y ago
Right, double seems totally reasonable for your median dev with a couple years experience. Well fortunately we don't have to decide salaries based on what a founder's self-serving definition of "totally reasonable" is. Instead, we have a well functioning market that finds efficient salaries. (That is, when large tech companies aren't colluding to artificially lower salaries through illegal no-poaching agreements).
- AndrewKemendo 12y ago
  Well fortunately we don't have to decide salaries based on what a founder's self-serving definition of "totally reasonable" is Except that's not the case. Those numbers are what the market is signaling and apparently the OP doesn't like it. That's my point. The OP is saying, the market isn't offering enough. I say, well apparently it is otherwise it would be higher. So it much be good enough for most people.
  - 300bps 12y ago
    I think you might be making the classic mistake of thinking the market is equal to what people advertise on the Internet. As I've heard a million times on Pawn Stars, "Anyone can ask for anything on the Internet. What are they selling for?" I work in Delaware and $110k per year salary for software engineers would be an average salary for someone with some experience. According to a cost of living calculator, someone making $110k per year in Wilmington, DE would need to make $170k per year in San Francisco for the same standard of living.
    - TheCoelacanth 12y ago
      San Francisco has the "sun tax" which means that salaries don't keep up with the cost of living. Its climate is much more pleasant than Delaware so people are willing to sacrifice financially to live there. That results in a lower ratio of average salary to cost of living.
      - jessaustin 12y ago
        There's no accounting for taste... If anything I would say Delaware's climate is better. Sure they get an occasional snow, but it actually gets warm enough in summer to wear shorts, and they don't have so much fog... Also when it's sunny many people like to go to the beach and swim in the ocean. For water temps above 62 F, don't go to SF.
bendmorris 12y ago
Reasonable or not, that's market salary for engineers where I live, roughly double the median salary across all jobs. It matters less what you think is reasonable and more what competing companies are willing to pay me.
- AndrewKemendo 12y ago
  It matters less what you think is reasonable and more what competing companies are willing to pay me. Right, and apparently it's $60-110K, which is my point.
  - bendmorris 12y ago
    That's what startups are willing to pay. It's not competitive when considering non-startup work opportunities, which is OP's point.
    - AndrewKemendo 12y ago
      It's not competitive when considering non-startup work opportunities You seem to think these are different markets - it's the same. If people are choosing them then apparently it is competitive. It may just not be what people think they should be making. Developers should actually expect lower wages because there are more market entrants. The whole push for everyone to learn to code, almost 100% pushed for by developers, would have exactly that effect. This is why I think it's silly when the dev community pushes back on organizing as though it's going to stay a sellers market forever - especially as they push the idea (rightfully so) that being a developer/engineer is a great job and drive people into the market.
      - cbr 12y ago
        I like that my wages are high, but I don't like that lots of other people don't have good economic options. If my wages go down because more people learn to code and it becomes less of a sellers market, I'd consider that a good outcome. Organizing to keep new coders out would just help existing coders relative to everyone else, and as a whole we're a group that's relatively well off.
mbesto 12y ago
I think the OPs point is that the median salary of CA is totally irrelevant to the discussion and framing it against that is rather myopic. A mechanic working in a car shop doesn't produce the same economic value an engineer working at the "next big Facebook startup" does. There's a reason there was a lawsuit against fixing wages for these companies.[0] [0] - http://time.com/76655/google-apple-settle-wage-fixing-lawsuit/ http://time.com/76655/google-apple-settle-wage-fixing-lawsui...
- AndrewKemendo 12y ago
  A mechanic working in a car shop doesn't produce the same economic value an engineer working at the "next big Facebook startup" does Talk about myopic. Apply your calculus in year 2000 and you'll see the folly there. That is insulting to everyone else making lower wages and assumes that "value" is accurately assigned. You telling me a Nurse or teacher provides less value than a dev working for a Startup that dispatches food quicker? Please make that argument for me because this idea is what is wrong with SV.
  - tdfx 12y ago
    He said "economic value", which is much easier to quantify than the subjective value you seem to be evaluating.
  - iopq 12y ago
    A teacher teaches a class of 30. An engineer at an education startup will create a product that teaches millions over its existence.
    - kaitai 12y ago
      A first-grade teacher provides role models for students, talks to parents, connects kids with social services, talks now and then to child protection, might make sure her students have coats in the winter, etc. An education startup creates a product that might provide information and feedback for the millions of people who get to use it in its existence. Don't get me wrong: I'm working on such products now. I love it. I don't have to deal with discipline problems or students' home lives. It's a different job and the products are not comparable.

loumf 12y ago

I wrote about how to research labor statistics on salary here: http://www.greenwave-solutions.com/getting-labor-data-about-software-developers/ http://www.greenwave-solutions.com/getting-labor-data-about-... SV median salary for software development jobs (loosely defined) was about $122k in 2014. SF was about $110.

mahyarm 12y ago

The cost of living in california also varies widely!