10 ms·

IRC as a Hiring Filter

63 points by whaley 12y ago

wyldfire 12y ago
I think shibboleth is a shibboleth.
Sir_Cmpwn 12y ago
Though I fully agree on every point, I worry that IRC has fallen more and more into disuse and finding candidates who use it is going to be more and more difficult over time.
- mariusz79 12y ago
  But the candidates will be much better :)
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - Iftheshoefits 12y ago
    Please provide evidence for your assertion.
    - mariusz79 12y ago
      If your filter is based on the irc, and the number of people there is declining, basically it means that only the most hard-core users are remaining. And usually that means that they know how to use it.
      - munificent 12y ago
        Sure, if you're hiring people to be skilled IRC users. But, I think what you're trying to hire are skilled software developers. It's apparently been left as an exercise for the reader to demonstrate any correlation between these two skills.
      - vidarh 12y ago
        It means they know how to use IRC, yes. It does not mean they're better at anything else.
      - mariusz79 12y ago
        @munificent as the title of the post states IRC is a filter.. filter used after candidate is selected from a pool of people that have necessary skills, other than using IRC.. The author simply talks about selecting from this pool people that can use simple tools like IRC. Filter does not mean barrier.
    - mwfunk 12y ago
      Obviously the evidence being presented here is that mariusz79 uses IRC, therefore he approves of it being used as a hiring filter :)
      - mariusz79 12y ago
        So that means that people disapproving don't know how to use IRC? Well, poor souls.. Kids these days can't use IRC, don't know that gopher still exists, never used usenet... Being a software developer, or admin, or even technical writter, and never even trying to learn how the Internet looked like before everything was turned to Javascript...How sad.. It's like never riding the bike...
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
  - Sir_Cmpwn 12y ago
    There are many good engineers who I would have missed on if I used IRC as a filter.
  - mahyarm 12y ago
    Or just older.
    - mariusz79 12y ago
      Yeah, I just said they will be better:) That assumes they will be older :). Recruiters may not believe that but an actual life experience does make you better:)
nimbix 12y ago
To me, nothing sums up IRC of today better than the following line: * No one in your notify list is on IRC
feld 12y ago
I would highly value the ability of someone to use IRC and interact with the authors of the open source software your company is using.
juancastro 12y ago
This is awesome!
kristoffer 12y ago
Pretty ridiculous. Aren't we having problems finding candidates? Why care if they use the most leet irc client or write irc bots? Recruiting people you find on irc in coding related channels I'm all for that. But it doesn't scale obviously.
- saraid216 12y ago
  Nah, that's just what we say to all those "diversity hand-wringers".
- raverbashing 12y ago
  Yes, today "we can't find candidates" means usually "we can't find someone that fits our biased hiring filter determined by the personal preferences of the senior developer" And yes, make senior people write FizzBuzz on a whiteboard, they find it thrilling.
  - vidarh 12y ago
    It's great when people make up these filters - it gives those of us who have no problems finding a job an easy way to identify places not worth working at during the interview process. I've told potential employees "no" more than once due to sequences of hurdles during the hiring process that were easy to pass, but told me very clearly I didn't want to work there. The more bullshit, the more likely it also is I'll receive and say yes to another offer while they're busy playing.
twiss 12y ago
I agree that you shouldn't hire someone who is unable to learn to use internal tools, for one because then you use them and they don't. However, if you wanted to create an easier to use version of IRC/git/whatever, would that be easier if you didn't understand the original or if you did? I'm on the fence about this. I'm glad I remember one thing that confused me about git, although I probably forgot others.
aiiane 12y ago
Another proposed hiring metric that is likely to favor the stereotypical coding-since-childhood male developer. IRC channels are often just as bad if not worse than mailing lists when it comes to providing a welcoming space for minorities.
- mariusz79 12y ago
  I have not seen anything in the RFC 1459,2810, 2811, 2812, 2813 preventing females from using irc protocol. And obviously you never used IRC if you think that it's somehow not a welcoming space to minorities.
  - mariusz79 12y ago
    Apparently all these downvotes come from people who never used IRC.. and never took a part in a flame war on usenet, or overtook a channel on IRC.. Keep them coming, I still have enough karma left :)
    - vidarh 12y ago
      I downvoted you, as someone who spent years hanging around on IRC large parts of my free time, and who based on your comment questions how much experience you have with IRC. For a while, it was my main source of social interaction overall. 20 years ago I used to pick up women on IRC - most of my dates for years came that way. At the same time, while certainly there are women and minorities on IRC, I've seen few environments that could turn incredibly ugly and sexist and bigoted so quickly, or that could wear women in particular down so quickly and drive them away. It at least used to take an incredibly thick skin to be a woman on IRC. In fact, back in the day, one of the most effective way of picking up women on IRC, was to simply set yourself apart from what they quickly became used to, by making fun of the endless stream of horny teenage boys anyone with a somewhat female-sounding nick used to have to deal with, no matter what channels they were on. The extent certainly does vary by network, and channel, but watching over the shoulder of a woman using IRC anywhere without very strict policies and very specific audiences can be very enlightening unless they hide their gender. And many do.
Thriptic 12y ago
Is IRC still a widely used protocol? I used it for years about 10-15 years ago, but I rarely hear of people around me using it currently.
- vezzy-fnord 12y ago
  IRC is still the bread and butter for a large variety of free software projects. I don't see that changing soon.
- fintler 12y ago
  I work for a company in Alexa's top 20. We use IRC for almost everything. Something I find really useful is Jira integration with IRC. When something goes wrong, an IRC channel will open up with the name of the Jira ticket -- then status bots and logging bots will join automatically. It really helps to organize everything, especially when multiple problems are happening concurrently. It's also great for building post-mortem timelines after things are resolved. In addition, most teams also have their own channel, so you can generally join it and ask questions for a quick response.
  - Domenic_S 12y ago
    > When something goes wrong, an IRC channel will open up with the name of the Jira ticket -- then status bots and logging bots will join automatically. I built Slack integrations like this for ongoing development, but your use case for troubleshooting sounds amazing. I would love it if you wrote a blog post about it.
- feld 12y ago
  The Navy uses IRC for ship to ship communications. I've heard someone comment to the effect of "if you see a netsplit when you're in a war zone, prepare for the worst"
- FireBeyond 12y ago
  Slack uses IRC at the back end, I believe.
fifthesteight 12y ago
I haven't used IRC since middle school, back when I was 31337. Way back from the days when there was a leading '3.' It's great you mention 'being a prick,' because that's what I said out loud as I read your article. I was tickled by the fact that you mentioned it, so I do respect that you know your strengths. This might work for you, and for the projects you work on, and I think it's not a bad recommendation for positions that need... that kind of stuff.
- toast0 12y ago
  If people judged me based on my IRC behavior, I would be in big trouble. I'm pretty sure staying off IRC when I moved to a 4-year college was a good choice for me (circa 2000). That said, experience causing net splits by CTCP flooding #quebec on undernet was helpful for understanding a situation where Erlang/OTP pg2 was flooding itself into oblivion. :)
rdtsc 12y ago
I forgot what the word meant so here is the definition for anyone else: --- A custom, principle, or belief distinguishing a particular class or group of people, especially a long-standing one regarded as outmoded or no longer important. --- Besides the mentioned Github and open source project participation other shibboleth I use is some experience or knowledge of functional languages -- Scala, Haskell, Lisp, Erlang, F# and such. I don't use them as hard guidelines but these just proved to be good heuristics in the past. Chances are high if someone is good at Haskell they will be good at many hard problems we throw at them.
mewwts 12y ago
I thought we all used Slack by now?
imsofuture 12y ago
This is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. IRC is an extremely narrow, exclusive and whitebread club. I'm personally kind of skeptical of most diversity-based complaints about improperly biased screening in hiring -- but man, this would really take the cake. As a daily IRC user, it would still be off putting to me.
- Gracana 12y ago
  Yeah, this definitely seems like a bad idea. Behavior on irc might be worth noting, but irc usage itself or client preference seems like the perfect way to hire only the "technically entitled."[1] I don't see any reason to limit myself to only hiring people who grew up in the same culture I did... there are plenty of paths to technical savvy, and "chats with people on irc" isn't even necessarily one of them. 1. http://tessrinearson.com/blog/?p=400 http://tessrinearson.com/blog/?p=400
  - mariusz79 12y ago
    IRC is full of the "technically entitled"? While this may be true, I don't believe it is. To use IRC all you need is a 386dx, and a little time. No need for a new computer so you can run app that requires 1gb of ram, or a newest cellphone. You don't need broadband connection, 14k modem will suffice. You don't need to pay a dime to use it. You can create/join any chat room you want, you don't need to share who you are, what are your sexual preferences, what color is your skin.. It's how the Internet was meant to be.
    - Jetrel 12y ago
      It's not about financial means; it's about social groups. Many older technologies (USENET, commercial unices, IRC, etc) were limited only to people with the extreme privilege to be connected to certain groups who were aware of the existence of a technology, and had the knowledge to know how to set it up, what was available to connect to, and how to deal with problems (often consisting of orally-transmitted secrets and esoterica). I've personally struggled with this; as a young teenager, I tried to learn C++ without any access to the internet, any mentor; just a few old books. I struggled with it for years and ultimately failed because certain technical obstacles couldn't be overcome without "in-group" knowledge that didn't exist in the meager documentation I could find. Either you were part of the social group that could help you out of your problem, or you effectively were not privileged to use the technology. IRC is symbolic to me of this sort of old-school "it works fine for us" mentality that poisoned the early tech enclaves - their myopic failure to include anyone who didn't win the social lottery of knowing the right people, or growing up in the right place. It's not that it worked for them that I begrudge - it's their assumption that things must also be working for the rest of humanity, since they themselves were doing just fine. It's the same sentiment that made people hate the classic "let them eat cake" line. (As a corollary, this is why Stack Exchange is maybe the best thing to happen to tech since the internet - a system specifically designed to incentivize people to document all of those "undocumented secrets" that are necessary to actually get any work done in a given field.)
samstarling 12y ago
"Being a prick is generally not a good thing, but it is conditionally necessary" – this is where I stopped reading!
SCHiM 12y ago
I'm very technical, I've written hacks for online games, boot loaders, my own micro-operating system, accounting software, http servers. I've written patches for snort (the ids, not public) and a ton of other stuff. Yet I'm not on irc, I'd be a hire you'd miss if you used irc as a screening filter. > "and I have actually decided not to work with specific developers before in a professional setting because they literally could not figure out how connect to freenode and join a keyed channel" How about you just talk to people in the way they're used too? Instead of deriding them for not using <insert favorite means of communication here>. I know how to use irc, so this scenario does not completely apply to me, but it's very possible that a very technical person has never seen it before and has trouble with the irc commands or w/e. Especially since irc is really becoming a relic of the past, and newer hackers/programmers might never have used or seen it.
- mariusz79 12y ago
  " very technical person has never seen it before and has trouble with the irc commands " technical person having trouble with the irc commands - isn't that oxymoron?
  - GeneralMayhem 12y ago
    No. If you don't use it regularly, there's a lot of commands to learn. It's not hard per se, but I wouldn't want to be judged on it within a few minutes of being introduced to it.
    - blfr 12y ago
      Two. /connect and /join. Maybe /quit afterwards. Irssi will lift your nickname from the username. It may even come with freenode pre-configured.
    - ikawe 12y ago
      And a third: /ignore #room-name JOINS PARTS QUITS
    - mariusz79 12y ago
seomis 12y ago
What do college-age stoners sound like on IRC? Do they type "whoa" and "dude" a lot or something?
bicknergseng 12y ago
On the other hand, I'd probably not want to work for someone who thought IRC was the best solution for team communication in 2015, and certainly not for someone who thought it was better to bang your collective head against all of IRC's problems instead of paying a small amount for Slack or Flowdock or another solution that works well out of the box. IRC is still useful and relevant for a lot of OSS, but it's definitely not something relevant for screening people.
- mariusz79 12y ago
  What problems are you referring to?
edcastro 12y ago
I once did an interview on IRC for Opera and it was one of the most positively interesting interviews I did to date. There was a couple of people on the channel and the whole thing was very dynamic and organized. I loved it. Wish more companies did the same.
lucian1900 12y ago
IRC is terrible. It's a bad protocol and the user experience is pathetic for almost all clients. It's true that we sadly don't have a significantly better alternative, but that doesn't mean one can't have good reasons to avoid it.
rndmize 12y ago
I feel like it would easy to rewrite this post with a focus on just about any other arbitrary technical metric; like, say, how you host your blog. I mean, hosting your blog on squarespace? Isn't that like using some kind of basic, user-friendly chat service instead of IRC? What kind of real developer isn't deploying something to AWS or linode these days?
ajarmst 12y ago
I know that as recently as about five years ago, Google recruiters were contacting people being helpful in the C++ chatroom on Freenode.
pimlottc 12y ago
This is one of those tests where it's a positive if the applicant passes it, but if they don't, you can't really hold it against them. Good for you if you've found one of the true old-school hackers, but not, it doesn't mean they are a bad candidate. Simply a different kind. It's a pretty easily pattern to fall into - people who work like I do must be pretty smart because I try to do what works best. It's hard to evaluate someone whose mindset and approaches are different than your own. But when you've been around for a while, you realize there are so many different ways of solving problems and areas of expertise that there's no one right answer. So ultimately, I don't think these kinds of filters are that useful. It's basically a yes or no question, where a "yes" reinforces your existing biases and a "no" doesn't really gain you any information.
munificent 12y ago
One (of the many) problems with using IRC as a signal is that it's biased towards people with large chunks of predictable free time. I spend a lot of time communicating with people online, but IRC isn't a channel I use. The problem is that I have a family that naturally consumes a lot of my time. That means I don't control when I'm available to communicate. I get a decent amount of total time, but it's in bits and pieces spread throughout the day (mostly early morning or at night). That's perfectly fine for asynchronous communication like email, SO, here, etc. But it doesn't work for synchronous things like IRC. So, using "are they on IRC" as a hiring signal, I believe, effectively punishes people who have families, busy work schedules, or otherwise complex lives. In other words, I think it ends up favoring affluent young people. That's not something I'd personally be keen on biasing for in my hiring process given how much of an advantage that group already has in technical jobs.
- mariusz79 12y ago
  Most people on IRC are in an "away mode". It works exactly like any other IM system. You don't have to be logged in 24/7.
- MicroBerto 12y ago
  How do you know that's not an unstated goal of his? From a hiring manager's standpoint, isn't more free time a benefit? The same thing could go for using GitHub code as a signal. People with no free time are less likely to contribute to the community there too.
  - vidarh 12y ago
    For me, Github is most interesting as a signal in terms of the actual code available. Lack of Github means I'll have to find another way of seeing example of the persons code, but that's ok. I wouldn't dismiss anyone as a candidate for that. But someone with a Github repository or ten might be at an advantage because it serves effectively as lowering the threshold: I don't need to find their CV interesting enough to decide to ask them for an example of their code, just interesting enough to look at what's already there.
- 12y ago
chippy 12y ago
#hackernews on irc.freenode.net Over 100 or so already idling in the channel. I'll see you all in there!
vidarh 12y ago
Maybe 20 years ago. If you gave someone time to figure it out, and they seemed unwilling or unable to figure out how to get on IRC, then yes, that'd indicate someone unwilling/unable to figure out a relatively simple tool. But expecting them to already (or still) be IRC users today is a bit like expecting them to still spend lots of time on USENET. Looking at the drastic decline in user numbers on the major IRC networks as numbers of internet users have skyrocketed should be enough to make it clear going by irc usage is likely to be a stupid idea. Then again, I'm biased - I've not used IRC seriously for a decade at least, and did most of my IRC usage (including customizing irc-ii) about 20 years ago.
cbhl 12y ago
If the OP finds that knowing how to use IRC correlates well with the kind of people that the OP wants to hire, then I think it is reasonable to OP to test for basic IRC skills in their hiring process. For example, maybe IRC is the preferred communication medium during an emergency at OP's company, because it is more reliable than email or Skype when a data center goes down. But as a general practice, I don't see why this would be more beneficial than presenting a candidate with a rotary telephone and telling them to make a phone call with it.
- vidarh 12y ago
  > presenting a candidate with a rotary telephone and telling them to make a phone call with it. I felt terribly old the other day, as one of my younger co-workers overhead a conversation where rotary telephones were mentioned and turned around to ask us "what is a rotary telephone?" Then again, I don't think my 6 year old son has actually seen a wired telephone yet (we do have a land line, but it's wireless too) before, so I'm sure said co-worker will get the pleasure of feeling old soon enough.
slipstream- 12y ago
I've used IRC for years, but some of the statements made in this blog post make some assumptions. For example, I usually only register my nickname with nickserv when I know I'm going to be a (semi-)regular user of network X. Same with setting up my BNC to connect to that network.
pain 12y ago
I feel you may be judged for using their literacy and biteracy as a form of sorting and bitcism. Finding sensitivities to diversities of technical literacies is troublesome but teachingsome. That means identity issues are social issues, and language choices, changes, modus, and tools are important to address if we are serious about giving all forms of identity a chance.
apetresc 12y ago
I feel like the author recently learned the word "shibboleth" and just wanted an excuse to use it as many times as possible in an article.
- jamestomasino 12y ago
  Pretty sure I didn't see a single correct usage of the word in that article, actually. :/ shib·bo·leth SHibəliTH,-ˌleTH noun a custom, principle, or belief distinguishing a particular class or group of people, especially a long-standing one regarded as outmoded or no longer important. "the party began to break with the shibboleths of the left"
acheron 12y ago
Uh, IRC? Really? Now I know the 90s are back. Let me know if you have a position open for a Gopher developer.
- mariusz79 12y ago
  http://gopher.floodgap.com/overbite/ http://gopher.floodgap.com/overbite/ Start by writing gopher plugin for chrome. :)
hackerhasid 12y ago
"A simple `/ctcp $nick version` would be quite insightful to the tastes and possibly technical floor of the user." insightful? it tells you if the person uses irc on a regular basis already (in which case they might have a native client) or whether they use something else usually (in which case they might use the simplest web-based client they can find on google).

63 points by whaley 12y ago

I think shibboleth is a shibboleth.

Though I fully agree on every point, I worry that IRC has fallen more and more into disuse and finding candidates who use it is going to be more and more difficult over time.

mariusz79 12y ago
But the candidates will be much better :)
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- Iftheshoefits 12y ago
  Please provide evidence for your assertion.
  - mariusz79 12y ago
    If your filter is based on the irc, and the number of people there is declining, basically it means that only the most hard-core users are remaining. And usually that means that they know how to use it.
    - munificent 12y ago
      Sure, if you're hiring people to be skilled IRC users. But, I think what you're trying to hire are skilled software developers. It's apparently been left as an exercise for the reader to demonstrate any correlation between these two skills.
    - vidarh 12y ago
      It means they know how to use IRC, yes. It does not mean they're better at anything else.
    - mariusz79 12y ago
      @munificent as the title of the post states IRC is a filter.. filter used after candidate is selected from a pool of people that have necessary skills, other than using IRC.. The author simply talks about selecting from this pool people that can use simple tools like IRC. Filter does not mean barrier.
  - mwfunk 12y ago
    Obviously the evidence being presented here is that mariusz79 uses IRC, therefore he approves of it being used as a hiring filter :)
    - mariusz79 12y ago
      So that means that people disapproving don't know how to use IRC? Well, poor souls.. Kids these days can't use IRC, don't know that gopher still exists, never used usenet... Being a software developer, or admin, or even technical writter, and never even trying to learn how the Internet looked like before everything was turned to Javascript...How sad.. It's like never riding the bike...
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
- Sir_Cmpwn 12y ago
  There are many good engineers who I would have missed on if I used IRC as a filter.
- mahyarm 12y ago
  Or just older.
  - mariusz79 12y ago
    Yeah, I just said they will be better:) That assumes they will be older :). Recruiters may not believe that but an actual life experience does make you better:)

nimbix 12y ago

To me, nothing sums up IRC of today better than the following line: * No one in your notify list is on IRC

feld 12y ago

I would highly value the ability of someone to use IRC and interact with the authors of the open source software your company is using.

juancastro 12y ago

This is awesome!

kristoffer 12y ago

Pretty ridiculous. Aren't we having problems finding candidates? Why care if they use the most leet irc client or write irc bots? Recruiting people you find on irc in coding related channels I'm all for that. But it doesn't scale obviously.

saraid216 12y ago
Nah, that's just what we say to all those "diversity hand-wringers".
raverbashing 12y ago
Yes, today "we can't find candidates" means usually "we can't find someone that fits our biased hiring filter determined by the personal preferences of the senior developer" And yes, make senior people write FizzBuzz on a whiteboard, they find it thrilling.
- vidarh 12y ago
  It's great when people make up these filters - it gives those of us who have no problems finding a job an easy way to identify places not worth working at during the interview process. I've told potential employees "no" more than once due to sequences of hurdles during the hiring process that were easy to pass, but told me very clearly I didn't want to work there. The more bullshit, the more likely it also is I'll receive and say yes to another offer while they're busy playing.

twiss 12y ago

I agree that you shouldn't hire someone who is unable to learn to use internal tools, for one because then you use them and they don't. However, if you wanted to create an easier to use version of IRC/git/whatever, would that be easier if you didn't understand the original or if you did? I'm on the fence about this. I'm glad I remember one thing that confused me about git, although I probably forgot others.

aiiane 12y ago

Another proposed hiring metric that is likely to favor the stereotypical coding-since-childhood male developer. IRC channels are often just as bad if not worse than mailing lists when it comes to providing a welcoming space for minorities.

mariusz79 12y ago
I have not seen anything in the RFC 1459,2810, 2811, 2812, 2813 preventing females from using irc protocol. And obviously you never used IRC if you think that it's somehow not a welcoming space to minorities.
- mariusz79 12y ago
  Apparently all these downvotes come from people who never used IRC.. and never took a part in a flame war on usenet, or overtook a channel on IRC.. Keep them coming, I still have enough karma left :)
  - vidarh 12y ago
    I downvoted you, as someone who spent years hanging around on IRC large parts of my free time, and who based on your comment questions how much experience you have with IRC. For a while, it was my main source of social interaction overall. 20 years ago I used to pick up women on IRC - most of my dates for years came that way. At the same time, while certainly there are women and minorities on IRC, I've seen few environments that could turn incredibly ugly and sexist and bigoted so quickly, or that could wear women in particular down so quickly and drive them away. It at least used to take an incredibly thick skin to be a woman on IRC. In fact, back in the day, one of the most effective way of picking up women on IRC, was to simply set yourself apart from what they quickly became used to, by making fun of the endless stream of horny teenage boys anyone with a somewhat female-sounding nick used to have to deal with, no matter what channels they were on. The extent certainly does vary by network, and channel, but watching over the shoulder of a woman using IRC anywhere without very strict policies and very specific audiences can be very enlightening unless they hide their gender. And many do.

Thriptic 12y ago

Is IRC still a widely used protocol? I used it for years about 10-15 years ago, but I rarely hear of people around me using it currently.

vezzy-fnord 12y ago
IRC is still the bread and butter for a large variety of free software projects. I don't see that changing soon.
fintler 12y ago
I work for a company in Alexa's top 20. We use IRC for almost everything. Something I find really useful is Jira integration with IRC. When something goes wrong, an IRC channel will open up with the name of the Jira ticket -- then status bots and logging bots will join automatically. It really helps to organize everything, especially when multiple problems are happening concurrently. It's also great for building post-mortem timelines after things are resolved. In addition, most teams also have their own channel, so you can generally join it and ask questions for a quick response.
- Domenic_S 12y ago
  > When something goes wrong, an IRC channel will open up with the name of the Jira ticket -- then status bots and logging bots will join automatically. I built Slack integrations like this for ongoing development, but your use case for troubleshooting sounds amazing. I would love it if you wrote a blog post about it.
feld 12y ago
The Navy uses IRC for ship to ship communications. I've heard someone comment to the effect of "if you see a netsplit when you're in a war zone, prepare for the worst"
FireBeyond 12y ago
Slack uses IRC at the back end, I believe.

fifthesteight 12y ago

I haven't used IRC since middle school, back when I was 31337. Way back from the days when there was a leading '3.' It's great you mention 'being a prick,' because that's what I said out loud as I read your article. I was tickled by the fact that you mentioned it, so I do respect that you know your strengths. This might work for you, and for the projects you work on, and I think it's not a bad recommendation for positions that need... that kind of stuff.

toast0 12y ago
If people judged me based on my IRC behavior, I would be in big trouble. I'm pretty sure staying off IRC when I moved to a 4-year college was a good choice for me (circa 2000). That said, experience causing net splits by CTCP flooding #quebec on undernet was helpful for understanding a situation where Erlang/OTP pg2 was flooding itself into oblivion. :)

rdtsc 12y ago

I forgot what the word meant so here is the definition for anyone else: --- A custom, principle, or belief distinguishing a particular class or group of people, especially a long-standing one regarded as outmoded or no longer important. --- Besides the mentioned Github and open source project participation other shibboleth I use is some experience or knowledge of functional languages -- Scala, Haskell, Lisp, Erlang, F# and such. I don't use them as hard guidelines but these just proved to be good heuristics in the past. Chances are high if someone is good at Haskell they will be good at many hard problems we throw at them.

mewwts 12y ago

I thought we all used Slack by now?

imsofuture 12y ago

This is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. IRC is an extremely narrow, exclusive and whitebread club. I'm personally kind of skeptical of most diversity-based complaints about improperly biased screening in hiring -- but man, this would really take the cake. As a daily IRC user, it would still be off putting to me.

Gracana 12y ago
Yeah, this definitely seems like a bad idea. Behavior on irc might be worth noting, but irc usage itself or client preference seems like the perfect way to hire only the "technically entitled."[1] I don't see any reason to limit myself to only hiring people who grew up in the same culture I did... there are plenty of paths to technical savvy, and "chats with people on irc" isn't even necessarily one of them. 1. http://tessrinearson.com/blog/?p=400 http://tessrinearson.com/blog/?p=400
- mariusz79 12y ago
  IRC is full of the "technically entitled"? While this may be true, I don't believe it is. To use IRC all you need is a 386dx, and a little time. No need for a new computer so you can run app that requires 1gb of ram, or a newest cellphone. You don't need broadband connection, 14k modem will suffice. You don't need to pay a dime to use it. You can create/join any chat room you want, you don't need to share who you are, what are your sexual preferences, what color is your skin.. It's how the Internet was meant to be.
  - Jetrel 12y ago
    It's not about financial means; it's about social groups. Many older technologies (USENET, commercial unices, IRC, etc) were limited only to people with the extreme privilege to be connected to certain groups who were aware of the existence of a technology, and had the knowledge to know how to set it up, what was available to connect to, and how to deal with problems (often consisting of orally-transmitted secrets and esoterica). I've personally struggled with this; as a young teenager, I tried to learn C++ without any access to the internet, any mentor; just a few old books. I struggled with it for years and ultimately failed because certain technical obstacles couldn't be overcome without "in-group" knowledge that didn't exist in the meager documentation I could find. Either you were part of the social group that could help you out of your problem, or you effectively were not privileged to use the technology. IRC is symbolic to me of this sort of old-school "it works fine for us" mentality that poisoned the early tech enclaves - their myopic failure to include anyone who didn't win the social lottery of knowing the right people, or growing up in the right place. It's not that it worked for them that I begrudge - it's their assumption that things must also be working for the rest of humanity, since they themselves were doing just fine. It's the same sentiment that made people hate the classic "let them eat cake" line. (As a corollary, this is why Stack Exchange is maybe the best thing to happen to tech since the internet - a system specifically designed to incentivize people to document all of those "undocumented secrets" that are necessary to actually get any work done in a given field.)

samstarling 12y ago

"Being a prick is generally not a good thing, but it is conditionally necessary" – this is where I stopped reading!

SCHiM 12y ago

I'm very technical, I've written hacks for online games, boot loaders, my own micro-operating system, accounting software, http servers. I've written patches for snort (the ids, not public) and a ton of other stuff. Yet I'm not on irc, I'd be a hire you'd miss if you used irc as a screening filter. > "and I have actually decided not to work with specific developers before in a professional setting because they literally could not figure out how connect to freenode and join a keyed channel" How about you just talk to people in the way they're used too? Instead of deriding them for not using <insert favorite means of communication here>. I know how to use irc, so this scenario does not completely apply to me, but it's very possible that a very technical person has never seen it before and has trouble with the irc commands or w/e. Especially since irc is really becoming a relic of the past, and newer hackers/programmers might never have used or seen it.

mariusz79 12y ago
" very technical person has never seen it before and has trouble with the irc commands " technical person having trouble with the irc commands - isn't that oxymoron?
- GeneralMayhem 12y ago
  No. If you don't use it regularly, there's a lot of commands to learn. It's not hard per se, but I wouldn't want to be judged on it within a few minutes of being introduced to it.
  - blfr 12y ago
    Two. /connect and /join. Maybe /quit afterwards. Irssi will lift your nickname from the username. It may even come with freenode pre-configured.
  - ikawe 12y ago
    And a third: /ignore #room-name JOINS PARTS QUITS
  - mariusz79 12y ago

seomis 12y ago

What do college-age stoners sound like on IRC? Do they type "whoa" and "dude" a lot or something?

bicknergseng 12y ago

On the other hand, I'd probably not want to work for someone who thought IRC was the best solution for team communication in 2015, and certainly not for someone who thought it was better to bang your collective head against all of IRC's problems instead of paying a small amount for Slack or Flowdock or another solution that works well out of the box. IRC is still useful and relevant for a lot of OSS, but it's definitely not something relevant for screening people.

mariusz79 12y ago
What problems are you referring to?

edcastro 12y ago

I once did an interview on IRC for Opera and it was one of the most positively interesting interviews I did to date. There was a couple of people on the channel and the whole thing was very dynamic and organized. I loved it. Wish more companies did the same.

lucian1900 12y ago

IRC is terrible. It's a bad protocol and the user experience is pathetic for almost all clients. It's true that we sadly don't have a significantly better alternative, but that doesn't mean one can't have good reasons to avoid it.

rndmize 12y ago

I feel like it would easy to rewrite this post with a focus on just about any other arbitrary technical metric; like, say, how you host your blog. I mean, hosting your blog on squarespace? Isn't that like using some kind of basic, user-friendly chat service instead of IRC? What kind of real developer isn't deploying something to AWS or linode these days?

ajarmst 12y ago

I know that as recently as about five years ago, Google recruiters were contacting people being helpful in the C++ chatroom on Freenode.

pimlottc 12y ago

This is one of those tests where it's a positive if the applicant passes it, but if they don't, you can't really hold it against them. Good for you if you've found one of the true old-school hackers, but not, it doesn't mean they are a bad candidate. Simply a different kind. It's a pretty easily pattern to fall into - people who work like I do must be pretty smart because I try to do what works best. It's hard to evaluate someone whose mindset and approaches are different than your own. But when you've been around for a while, you realize there are so many different ways of solving problems and areas of expertise that there's no one right answer. So ultimately, I don't think these kinds of filters are that useful. It's basically a yes or no question, where a "yes" reinforces your existing biases and a "no" doesn't really gain you any information.

munificent 12y ago

One (of the many) problems with using IRC as a signal is that it's biased towards people with large chunks of predictable free time. I spend a lot of time communicating with people online, but IRC isn't a channel I use. The problem is that I have a family that naturally consumes a lot of my time. That means I don't control when I'm available to communicate. I get a decent amount of total time, but it's in bits and pieces spread throughout the day (mostly early morning or at night). That's perfectly fine for asynchronous communication like email, SO, here, etc. But it doesn't work for synchronous things like IRC. So, using "are they on IRC" as a hiring signal, I believe, effectively punishes people who have families, busy work schedules, or otherwise complex lives. In other words, I think it ends up favoring affluent young people. That's not something I'd personally be keen on biasing for in my hiring process given how much of an advantage that group already has in technical jobs.

mariusz79 12y ago
Most people on IRC are in an "away mode". It works exactly like any other IM system. You don't have to be logged in 24/7.
MicroBerto 12y ago
How do you know that's not an unstated goal of his? From a hiring manager's standpoint, isn't more free time a benefit? The same thing could go for using GitHub code as a signal. People with no free time are less likely to contribute to the community there too.
- vidarh 12y ago
  For me, Github is most interesting as a signal in terms of the actual code available. Lack of Github means I'll have to find another way of seeing example of the persons code, but that's ok. I wouldn't dismiss anyone as a candidate for that. But someone with a Github repository or ten might be at an advantage because it serves effectively as lowering the threshold: I don't need to find their CV interesting enough to decide to ask them for an example of their code, just interesting enough to look at what's already there.
12y ago

chippy 12y ago

#hackernews on irc.freenode.net Over 100 or so already idling in the channel. I'll see you all in there!

vidarh 12y ago

Maybe 20 years ago. If you gave someone time to figure it out, and they seemed unwilling or unable to figure out how to get on IRC, then yes, that'd indicate someone unwilling/unable to figure out a relatively simple tool. But expecting them to already (or still) be IRC users today is a bit like expecting them to still spend lots of time on USENET. Looking at the drastic decline in user numbers on the major IRC networks as numbers of internet users have skyrocketed should be enough to make it clear going by irc usage is likely to be a stupid idea. Then again, I'm biased - I've not used IRC seriously for a decade at least, and did most of my IRC usage (including customizing irc-ii) about 20 years ago.

cbhl 12y ago

If the OP finds that knowing how to use IRC correlates well with the kind of people that the OP wants to hire, then I think it is reasonable to OP to test for basic IRC skills in their hiring process. For example, maybe IRC is the preferred communication medium during an emergency at OP's company, because it is more reliable than email or Skype when a data center goes down. But as a general practice, I don't see why this would be more beneficial than presenting a candidate with a rotary telephone and telling them to make a phone call with it.

vidarh 12y ago
> presenting a candidate with a rotary telephone and telling them to make a phone call with it. I felt terribly old the other day, as one of my younger co-workers overhead a conversation where rotary telephones were mentioned and turned around to ask us "what is a rotary telephone?" Then again, I don't think my 6 year old son has actually seen a wired telephone yet (we do have a land line, but it's wireless too) before, so I'm sure said co-worker will get the pleasure of feeling old soon enough.

slipstream- 12y ago

I've used IRC for years, but some of the statements made in this blog post make some assumptions. For example, I usually only register my nickname with nickserv when I know I'm going to be a (semi-)regular user of network X. Same with setting up my BNC to connect to that network.

pain 12y ago

I feel you may be judged for using their literacy and biteracy as a form of sorting and bitcism. Finding sensitivities to diversities of technical literacies is troublesome but teachingsome. That means identity issues are social issues, and language choices, changes, modus, and tools are important to address if we are serious about giving all forms of identity a chance.

apetresc 12y ago

I feel like the author recently learned the word "shibboleth" and just wanted an excuse to use it as many times as possible in an article.

jamestomasino 12y ago
Pretty sure I didn't see a single correct usage of the word in that article, actually. :/ shib·bo·leth SHibəliTH,-ˌleTH noun a custom, principle, or belief distinguishing a particular class or group of people, especially a long-standing one regarded as outmoded or no longer important. "the party began to break with the shibboleths of the left"

acheron 12y ago

Uh, IRC? Really? Now I know the 90s are back. Let me know if you have a position open for a Gopher developer.

mariusz79 12y ago
http://gopher.floodgap.com/overbite/ http://gopher.floodgap.com/overbite/ Start by writing gopher plugin for chrome. :)

hackerhasid 12y ago

"A simple `/ctcp $nick version` would be quite insightful to the tastes and possibly technical floor of the user." insightful? it tells you if the person uses irc on a regular basis already (in which case they might have a native client) or whether they use something else usually (in which case they might use the simplest web-based client they can find on google).