7 ms·

The prisoners trying to code their way to a better life

65 points by hachiya 12y ago

gambiting 12y ago
Except that - if I understand how US justice system works correctly - they won't be hired by anyone because they have a sentence in their books. Which is awful.
- Sirenos 12y ago
  Are you talking about the social stigma or is there something in the law that makes it difficult for ex-convicts to find jobs?
  - thefreeman 12y ago
    Felons are required to disclose on their job applications that they have a prior felony, and what it was they did. This has the effect of making it extremely difficult for them to find work, especially in white collar industries. Edit: Apparently I am wrong, they aren't technically required to disclose it. However, in practice, every job application I have ever seen has had the question.
    - swatow 12y ago
      That is incorrect. There is nothing in the law requiring felons to disclose this. Some employers might ask, and perform their own background checks based on public information.
      - mason240 12y ago
        In fact it's actually illegal in several states (MN is one) to ask about it on job applications.
        jpetersonmn 12y ago
        I'm from MN and every job application I've ever filled out in my life asked if I was a convicted felon. Including the job I'm at now.
        mason240 12y ago
        It is a new law that just passed last year, and I'm not sure if it has taken effect yet.
        jpetersonmn 12y ago
        I just read up on that, and looks like they did just pass a law that they can't ask you on the initial application, but then can weed you out later. IMO that's a horrible law that will end up costing businesses a lot of money, and not help felons get a job at all. If I run a business and I have a policy of not hiring felons, I should be able to weed them out in the initial application phase.
    - pcthrowaway 12y ago
      None of the tech jobs I came across asked if I had a felony. They all just asked applicants to send a cover letter and resume.
  - gambiting 12y ago
    There was an article on HN recently about someone who had a Masters Degree in computer science + very good qualifications, interviewed successfully for several companies,but they all refused after they have found out he spent a year in jail for a non-violent offence.
- throwaway_xl5 12y ago
  Maybe they could get work via odesk or a similar site?
- clamprecht 12y ago
  There isn't a law that says you can't hire felons as programmers, but there is a stigma. In some industries, such as banking or military contractors, there are probably regulations that would prevent felons from being hired. As a felon, I was rejected from an internship at IBM, but I was able to get hired at startup-type companies.
- desdiv 12y ago
  they won't be hired by anyone because they have a sentence in their books I think you meant that some people prefers not to hire them, which drives their prospective wages down and, in turn, makes them more attractive candidates to people will hire them, like me.
  - Slartibreakfast 12y ago
    Nothing like taking advantage of someone who has nothing to lose, I mean - what could possibly go wrong.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - jackmaney 12y ago
      They'll go back to prison and quite possibly never be employed again. For starters.
      - Slartibreakfast 12y ago
        Yep, about half of ex-cons end up back in the joint. And this is all the more reason, if you're going to hire someone with a criminal record, to try and treat them with the same respect you'd treat any other employee. For the very fact that many of them get treated so poorly when they get out that it makes just as much sense to go back in.
        jackmaney 12y ago
        Yeah, that's an enormous "if". Nearly every job I've held since college involved passing a criminal background check as a prerequisite for employment.
    - nkozyra 12y ago
      This is a weird comment for a couple of reasons: First, because it reads like a tacit threat - even if you aren't personally a convicted felon, anyone reading this might find themselves less willing to even consider someone who is. Second, people adjust their expected salary expenditures on any number of qualities and characteristics. It's not "taking advantage" of someone any more than paying a junior developer less than a senior developer. There's increased risk - real and/or perceived - involved in hiring someone who has had difficulty staying within the confines of the law.
- FamousShoes 12y ago
  The justice system in the US isn't really in play with people after they've done their time; when you're done you're done. However, the US civilian culture is different and the catch is that few US states' laws put any limit on discriminating against people with felony convictions, whether it be for a home today, a loan tomorrow, or a job fifty years later. Over the past twenty years, I've been told by many folks in the US tech industry holding unskilled positions that non-white-collar convicts should never be given jobs again, should do all their time in solitary, shouldn't have books or access to entertainment, or should be beaten with stones or bats (and a few variations on this theme of torture-as-penance, always by women oddly.) Regardless of whether those attitudes are right or wrong, it's important to understand they are there and seem to be commonly held by the folks standing at the gates. And, for people who've committed felonies and done their time to understand they can either get very creative in how they adapt, or reoffend. To bring this rambling back to the topic at hand: can "felons" get a tech job? Sure, but it's unlikely where those attitudes have had time to become invisibly entrenched, e.g., in human resources' workflow. So, as another poster said, startups are a real possibility. But really, any company where paperwork or blind-policy isn't in play--especially as a first step, e.g., a cookie-cutter job application--is a possibility. Another approach is to create the job, something almost uniquely possible in tech. In short, it's tough, doable, and I think great because people can use it to walk far from the scenery of recidivism, figuratively and literally.
mijoharas 12y ago
Wow, learning to code without being able to refer to stackoverflow or anything on the internet... does that count as cruel and unusual punishment?
- barrkel 12y ago
  It's how I learned to code. You depend on good documentation much more - though offline documentation used to be better, these days you're lucky if you get more than the source. It also makes you more independent when debugging issues no-one else online has seen. You become unafraid of digging into the next level down to find out what's going on.
  - wlesieutre 12y ago
    > these days you're lucky if you get more than the source. We don't need no docstrings, the source should be self documenting! /s
  - davycro 12y ago
    Same. I learned from library books w/o Internet.
  - maccard 12y ago
    I learned with the assistance of StackOverflow and Google-Fu for blogs and things, but now in work we use a handful of propitiatory libraries, with no information available online for them, and now have to work with only the documentation (and granted, direct support if I need it). It's really made me a better developer to default to the Docs rather than SO.
- 3am 12y ago
  I know you're joking, but to put how progressive the program is in context: http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2015/02/12/south_carolina_sends_prisoners_to_solitary_confinement_for_using_facebook.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2015/02/12/south_car...
  - 12y ago
thefreeman 12y ago
I actually think this is a great idea. While it is true they likely wouldn't be able to find a job in the industry with this training, I am sure some of them will come out with enough skill to do things like bid on freelance projects on elance.com. It really doesn't take a lot of projects to make equivalent and greater money then the type of minimum wage or manual labor jobs many ex-cons would end up working instead (or even petty crime).
- nailer 12y ago
  I think it's a great idea too. If the programme was good enough, they might be able to find jobs in the industry. Consider if: - They have 10,000 hours experience - They have StackOverflow and Kahn Academy and MIT access - They speak English as a first language (likely in the US) I'd pay someone like that.
zkhalique 12y ago
Well, finally. I mean, prisoners are kept without computers in their jail cells usually, bored out of their minds. Instead, they could be reformed by giving them useful work!
- AustinG08 12y ago
  My brother is in prison until 2018 on drug related charges. He was transferred to a for profit prison that has a reputation for gang violence, but fortunately all the non violent offenders from the state he was transferred from are kept in a separate wing. He has an Xbox One and gets to play games all day. He also reads a lot and works out. He works 40 hours a week and that pays him about $9/wk. They won't let them have computers, let alone internet access. I wish they would. It's strange what they can and can't have. They can buy a Nintendo 3DS but can't buy any games for it. I wonder who came up with that one.
  - zkhalique 12y ago
    It's truly ridiculous. Finland has much less recidivism: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/why-scandinavian-prisons-are-superior/279949/ http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/why...
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
FamousShoes 12y ago
If anyone has information on how to help with or reach out to this or similar programs, please post what you've got! [Edit] Here's an article with more comprehensive information, including the program's origins and the organizations behind it: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/11/how-18-inmates-at-californias-notorious-san-quentin-prison-learn-to-code/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/11/how-18-inmates-at...
bitslayer 12y ago
This is great, but there is a much greater need, simple literacy. http://www.invisiblechildren.org/2010/11/18/75-of-inmates-are-illiterate-19-are-completely-illiterate-ruben-rosario/#sthash.lbNiWXt6.dpbs http://www.invisiblechildren.org/2010/11/18/75-of-inmates-ar...
mariusz79 12y ago
Maybe The Mafia, or some other criminal organization could sponsor this training. This way they could create a nice, steady pool of applicants for the White Collar Crime Division :)
fifthesteight 12y ago
one of the best programmers i've ever worked with spent his time teaching himself php. he was a bright kid who made a stupid decision, but didnt let that stop him. we worked together for about 2 years and he ended up getting a couple great offers and now balls way, way harder than me. i have so much respect for him.
ljd 12y ago
There is one path for HackReactor to make money on this, they can act as recruiters between prisoners and companies. I know as an employer of developers, that I would hire someone with a felony because I know their introductory salary will be lower but their skill set should be the same. Which may sound over opportunistic, but it's just economics, fewer offers mean lower initial pay. The downside is if they become excellent developers it'll be hard to keep them at the lower salary, even if they do have a felony.
- vladsanchez 12y ago
  I concur. It's all economical. The main objective of this experiment is to be able to have a captive, subsidized workforce yielding the best return on investment.
- mgadams3 12y ago
  Probably true, but I don't think the motivation on this is for Hack Reactor to make money... there would be much easier ways to make money that don't involve prisoners if that's what they were after.
felon_developer 12y ago
I'm self taught, and had 2-3 years of a career before being incarcerated. I was incarcerated for 6 years. During that time, I had a few books. Other than a couple of basic computer courses, no access to computers. Just did my best to keep my mind in it. EDIT: I guess a new account can't comment more than once (makes sense) so I'd like to address the background check issue: I've had numerous jobs, where I disclosed honestly. My felony was a very serious one. Now I'm quite successful (making well over market; a regular poster on HN; throwaway account is obvious). I recently hired a released inmate who I knew could code though he hadn't ever really done it (he showed me some code he wrote down in TI-BASIC). This guy was locked up 15 years, but within a few months, he's learning as fast or faster than any random person.
- jackmaney 12y ago
  Honest question: why were you hired?
jkot 12y ago
> San Quentin state prison in California has begun a ground-breaking programme to teach prisoners how to code. What is so ground-breaking on that? Any normal country will some sort of education to their prisoners.
- jrochkind1 12y ago
  In most U.S. prisons, prisoners are denied access to computers at all, and especially to the internet, as a general principle. As of a couple years ago, there is a program that offers monitored email to some prisoners in U.S. prisons. Email only. Not only are there no educational programs involving computers, but prisoners are specifically disallowed from using computers for purposes like learning to code. Now, I'm not saying the U.S. is a "normal country".
sethrin 12y ago
I had the idea of wanting to teach programming in a prison, but it seemed to have the same requirements as teaching anywhere else: a degree, preferably in education, preferably a master's. I'm self taught and don't have a degree, so it sounds like it's not really an option for me. Does anyone have more information about how one would go about doing this, perhaps on a volunteer basis?

65 points by hachiya 12y ago

Except that - if I understand how US justice system works correctly - they won't be hired by anyone because they have a sentence in their books. Which is awful.

Sirenos 12y ago
Are you talking about the social stigma or is there something in the law that makes it difficult for ex-convicts to find jobs?
- thefreeman 12y ago
  Felons are required to disclose on their job applications that they have a prior felony, and what it was they did. This has the effect of making it extremely difficult for them to find work, especially in white collar industries. Edit: Apparently I am wrong, they aren't technically required to disclose it. However, in practice, every job application I have ever seen has had the question.
  - swatow 12y ago
    That is incorrect. There is nothing in the law requiring felons to disclose this. Some employers might ask, and perform their own background checks based on public information.
    - mason240 12y ago
      In fact it's actually illegal in several states (MN is one) to ask about it on job applications.
      - jpetersonmn 12y ago
        I'm from MN and every job application I've ever filled out in my life asked if I was a convicted felon. Including the job I'm at now.
        mason240 12y ago
        It is a new law that just passed last year, and I'm not sure if it has taken effect yet.
        jpetersonmn 12y ago
        I just read up on that, and looks like they did just pass a law that they can't ask you on the initial application, but then can weed you out later. IMO that's a horrible law that will end up costing businesses a lot of money, and not help felons get a job at all. If I run a business and I have a policy of not hiring felons, I should be able to weed them out in the initial application phase.
  - pcthrowaway 12y ago
    None of the tech jobs I came across asked if I had a felony. They all just asked applicants to send a cover letter and resume.
- gambiting 12y ago
  There was an article on HN recently about someone who had a Masters Degree in computer science + very good qualifications, interviewed successfully for several companies,but they all refused after they have found out he spent a year in jail for a non-violent offence.
throwaway_xl5 12y ago
Maybe they could get work via odesk or a similar site?
clamprecht 12y ago
There isn't a law that says you can't hire felons as programmers, but there is a stigma. In some industries, such as banking or military contractors, there are probably regulations that would prevent felons from being hired. As a felon, I was rejected from an internship at IBM, but I was able to get hired at startup-type companies.
desdiv 12y ago
they won't be hired by anyone because they have a sentence in their books I think you meant that some people prefers not to hire them, which drives their prospective wages down and, in turn, makes them more attractive candidates to people will hire them, like me.
- Slartibreakfast 12y ago
  Nothing like taking advantage of someone who has nothing to lose, I mean - what could possibly go wrong.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - jackmaney 12y ago
    They'll go back to prison and quite possibly never be employed again. For starters.
    - Slartibreakfast 12y ago
      Yep, about half of ex-cons end up back in the joint. And this is all the more reason, if you're going to hire someone with a criminal record, to try and treat them with the same respect you'd treat any other employee. For the very fact that many of them get treated so poorly when they get out that it makes just as much sense to go back in.
      - jackmaney 12y ago
        Yeah, that's an enormous "if". Nearly every job I've held since college involved passing a criminal background check as a prerequisite for employment.
  - nkozyra 12y ago
    This is a weird comment for a couple of reasons: First, because it reads like a tacit threat - even if you aren't personally a convicted felon, anyone reading this might find themselves less willing to even consider someone who is. Second, people adjust their expected salary expenditures on any number of qualities and characteristics. It's not "taking advantage" of someone any more than paying a junior developer less than a senior developer. There's increased risk - real and/or perceived - involved in hiring someone who has had difficulty staying within the confines of the law.
FamousShoes 12y ago
The justice system in the US isn't really in play with people after they've done their time; when you're done you're done. However, the US civilian culture is different and the catch is that few US states' laws put any limit on discriminating against people with felony convictions, whether it be for a home today, a loan tomorrow, or a job fifty years later. Over the past twenty years, I've been told by many folks in the US tech industry holding unskilled positions that non-white-collar convicts should never be given jobs again, should do all their time in solitary, shouldn't have books or access to entertainment, or should be beaten with stones or bats (and a few variations on this theme of torture-as-penance, always by women oddly.) Regardless of whether those attitudes are right or wrong, it's important to understand they are there and seem to be commonly held by the folks standing at the gates. And, for people who've committed felonies and done their time to understand they can either get very creative in how they adapt, or reoffend. To bring this rambling back to the topic at hand: can "felons" get a tech job? Sure, but it's unlikely where those attitudes have had time to become invisibly entrenched, e.g., in human resources' workflow. So, as another poster said, startups are a real possibility. But really, any company where paperwork or blind-policy isn't in play--especially as a first step, e.g., a cookie-cutter job application--is a possibility. Another approach is to create the job, something almost uniquely possible in tech. In short, it's tough, doable, and I think great because people can use it to walk far from the scenery of recidivism, figuratively and literally.

mijoharas 12y ago

Wow, learning to code without being able to refer to stackoverflow or anything on the internet... does that count as cruel and unusual punishment?

barrkel 12y ago
It's how I learned to code. You depend on good documentation much more - though offline documentation used to be better, these days you're lucky if you get more than the source. It also makes you more independent when debugging issues no-one else online has seen. You become unafraid of digging into the next level down to find out what's going on.
- wlesieutre 12y ago
  > these days you're lucky if you get more than the source. We don't need no docstrings, the source should be self documenting! /s
- davycro 12y ago
  Same. I learned from library books w/o Internet.
- maccard 12y ago
  I learned with the assistance of StackOverflow and Google-Fu for blogs and things, but now in work we use a handful of propitiatory libraries, with no information available online for them, and now have to work with only the documentation (and granted, direct support if I need it). It's really made me a better developer to default to the Docs rather than SO.
3am 12y ago
I know you're joking, but to put how progressive the program is in context: http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2015/02/12/south_carolina_sends_prisoners_to_solitary_confinement_for_using_facebook.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2015/02/12/south_car...
- 12y ago

thefreeman 12y ago

I actually think this is a great idea. While it is true they likely wouldn't be able to find a job in the industry with this training, I am sure some of them will come out with enough skill to do things like bid on freelance projects on elance.com. It really doesn't take a lot of projects to make equivalent and greater money then the type of minimum wage or manual labor jobs many ex-cons would end up working instead (or even petty crime).

nailer 12y ago
I think it's a great idea too. If the programme was good enough, they might be able to find jobs in the industry. Consider if: - They have 10,000 hours experience - They have StackOverflow and Kahn Academy and MIT access - They speak English as a first language (likely in the US) I'd pay someone like that.

zkhalique 12y ago

Well, finally. I mean, prisoners are kept without computers in their jail cells usually, bored out of their minds. Instead, they could be reformed by giving them useful work!

AustinG08 12y ago
My brother is in prison until 2018 on drug related charges. He was transferred to a for profit prison that has a reputation for gang violence, but fortunately all the non violent offenders from the state he was transferred from are kept in a separate wing. He has an Xbox One and gets to play games all day. He also reads a lot and works out. He works 40 hours a week and that pays him about $9/wk. They won't let them have computers, let alone internet access. I wish they would. It's strange what they can and can't have. They can buy a Nintendo 3DS but can't buy any games for it. I wonder who came up with that one.
- zkhalique 12y ago
  It's truly ridiculous. Finland has much less recidivism: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/why-scandinavian-prisons-are-superior/279949/ http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/why...

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

FamousShoes 12y ago

If anyone has information on how to help with or reach out to this or similar programs, please post what you've got! [Edit] Here's an article with more comprehensive information, including the program's origins and the organizations behind it: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/11/how-18-inmates-at-californias-notorious-san-quentin-prison-learn-to-code/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/11/how-18-inmates-at...

bitslayer 12y ago

This is great, but there is a much greater need, simple literacy. http://www.invisiblechildren.org/2010/11/18/75-of-inmates-are-illiterate-19-are-completely-illiterate-ruben-rosario/#sthash.lbNiWXt6.dpbs http://www.invisiblechildren.org/2010/11/18/75-of-inmates-ar...

mariusz79 12y ago

Maybe The Mafia, or some other criminal organization could sponsor this training. This way they could create a nice, steady pool of applicants for the White Collar Crime Division :)

fifthesteight 12y ago

one of the best programmers i've ever worked with spent his time teaching himself php. he was a bright kid who made a stupid decision, but didnt let that stop him. we worked together for about 2 years and he ended up getting a couple great offers and now balls way, way harder than me. i have so much respect for him.

ljd 12y ago

There is one path for HackReactor to make money on this, they can act as recruiters between prisoners and companies. I know as an employer of developers, that I would hire someone with a felony because I know their introductory salary will be lower but their skill set should be the same. Which may sound over opportunistic, but it's just economics, fewer offers mean lower initial pay. The downside is if they become excellent developers it'll be hard to keep them at the lower salary, even if they do have a felony.

vladsanchez 12y ago
I concur. It's all economical. The main objective of this experiment is to be able to have a captive, subsidized workforce yielding the best return on investment.
mgadams3 12y ago
Probably true, but I don't think the motivation on this is for Hack Reactor to make money... there would be much easier ways to make money that don't involve prisoners if that's what they were after.

felon_developer 12y ago

I'm self taught, and had 2-3 years of a career before being incarcerated. I was incarcerated for 6 years. During that time, I had a few books. Other than a couple of basic computer courses, no access to computers. Just did my best to keep my mind in it. EDIT: I guess a new account can't comment more than once (makes sense) so I'd like to address the background check issue: I've had numerous jobs, where I disclosed honestly. My felony was a very serious one. Now I'm quite successful (making well over market; a regular poster on HN; throwaway account is obvious). I recently hired a released inmate who I knew could code though he hadn't ever really done it (he showed me some code he wrote down in TI-BASIC). This guy was locked up 15 years, but within a few months, he's learning as fast or faster than any random person.

jackmaney 12y ago
Honest question: why were you hired?

jkot 12y ago

> San Quentin state prison in California has begun a ground-breaking programme to teach prisoners how to code. What is so ground-breaking on that? Any normal country will some sort of education to their prisoners.

jrochkind1 12y ago
In most U.S. prisons, prisoners are denied access to computers at all, and especially to the internet, as a general principle. As of a couple years ago, there is a program that offers monitored email to some prisoners in U.S. prisons. Email only. Not only are there no educational programs involving computers, but prisoners are specifically disallowed from using computers for purposes like learning to code. Now, I'm not saying the U.S. is a "normal country".

sethrin 12y ago

I had the idea of wanting to teach programming in a prison, but it seemed to have the same requirements as teaching anywhere else: a degree, preferably in education, preferably a master's. I'm self taught and don't have a degree, so it sounds like it's not really an option for me. Does anyone have more information about how one would go about doing this, perhaps on a volunteer basis?