4 ms·

Replace "offend the wrong person" with "do something really f*cking stupid" - which is what she did - and the outcome seems fair. No one deserves to be bullied

Replace "offend the wrong person" with "do something really f*cking stupid" - which is what she did - and the outcome seems fair. No one deserves to be bullied or harassed but consequences need to exist to actions.

andybak 12y ago
Fair? Do you really think so? If so you terrify me. I've done plenty of really f*cking stupid things in my time. I'm very thankful most of them were offline or pre-internet.
- gearoidoc 12y ago
  You're terrified by the idea that someone should be fired for gross unprofessionalism? To repeat: she did not deserve ANY bullying or harassment whatsoever. Did you experience consequences of the stupid actions you've taken?
  - andybak 12y ago
    > To repeat: she did not deserve ANY bullying or harassment whatsoever. That wasn't clear. You said the "outcome was fair" - the outcome was that her life was ruined.
    - gearoidoc 12y ago
      I also said: No one deserves to be bullied or harassed but consequences need to exist to actions. I meant the outcome from a professional standpoint was fair. I don't believe how her life has been "ruined" as I've explained elsewhere.
      - tertius 12y ago
        Clearly the person who fired her only did so because of public outcry, i.e. the bullying. That was in their best interest. It wasn't fair. It wasn't a consequence equal to her action. It may have been equal to the reaction to her tweet, but that reaction was unjust. The consequences of the bullying, given her being fired, is much worse than if she was not fired. Her ability to compete in the workplace has been severely diminished because of this. Her PTSD that she will probably suffer for a long time has been greatly exacerbated by her firing. Given the worst intention of her tweet (ignorance), getting fired was still not the right reaction to her "crime." Do people need to be held accountable to their actions? I agree that they should. Outside of criminal law (since this wasn't criminal), the mob is not the right group to decide what the correct consequence of her actions should be. History shows that this leads to barbarism, which this was a case of. She didn't get what was coming to her, she got much worse.
      - zem 12y ago
        if you think the outcome from a professional standpoint was fair, you have a very bleak and dystopian view of fairness. she was posting something to her own private twitter account in her own time; it had nothing to do with the job.
  - 650REDHAIR 12y ago
    Gross unprofessionalism? She wasn't on the job. It wasn't an official account.
    - MichaelGG 12y ago
      You'd think a PR person would know PR doesn't take breaks or consider unofficial stuff to be out of bounds.
    - gearoidoc 12y ago
      I'd like to live to a world where your actions outside of the workplace in a physical or online sense don't affect how you're perceived but it's just not true.
      - celticninja 12y ago
        Not true because of people like you who force the link, who call,email and tweet employers about the behaviour of their off duty staff.
        gearoidoc 12y ago
        because of people like you ^Thats quite an assumption to make, no? For the record, I've never done any of the above.
        celticninja 12y ago
        I think you understand what I mean but are perhaps being dense for the sake of argument. There are people who hold simile views to yourself and these people take it up on themselves to bring people's employers into arguments that they have no part of or perhaps would be otherwise unaware of. That's not to say the employer cannot have a response to comments and posts of this nature but they are not allowed to deal with it in a professional manner because the mob is baying at their door.
        12y ago
  - bentcorner 12y ago
    I've posted something online that almost got me fired. No racists remarks, no hate, it was just some techincal info I shouldn't have shared. The power that a few sentences can have is sometimes terrifying.
    - dredmorbius 12y ago
      Among the reasons that I "am" "Dr. Edward Morbius" and "work" is "Krell Power Systems, Unlimited".
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
latestrevision 12y ago
It appears that a big part of this discussion is about how we as a group are not sure if it really is a situation in which she "[did] something really f cking stupid", though. Clearly, you do interpret her statement to be an offensive, racist remark, but by her own admission, she instead was commenting on how "[l]iving in America puts us in a bit of a bubble when it comes to what is going on in the third world. I was making fun of that bubble." Whether or not her explanation for the off-color is truly genuine is up for debate, but scuttling somebody's life and career for something that only might have been a racist remark doesn't seem all that fair to me and (it would appear) a significant fraction of commenters here.
- gearoidoc 12y ago
  Her explanation does sound like it was crafted by a political PR group - which makes sense considering her profession - but I'm still happy to take her word for it. However, it's pretty easy to see how it could be considered a racist and bigoted tweet and I'd expect her to have realised this before sending it. EDIT: I totally agree that scuttling someones life on career off the back of one tweet is unfair - I 100% agree with that. As I said in the original comment, the bullying she experienced was totally unfair. I don't believe, however, that her career is ruined by it - evidenced by the fact that she's now gainfully employed. I think it's definitely a red flag on her resume but by doing volunteer service after the fact I'd be surprised if any company wouldn't see this as "I did something dumb, I learnt and grew from it". Professionals in PR should naturally be extra-vigilant about issues like these.
  - 21echoes 12y ago
    if the joke had come out of Louis CK's mouth, its intention would have been obvious. given that, as she said in the article, "only an insane person would think that white people can't get AIDS", and the phrasing is obviously comic (dour opening, sudden & glib reversal, edgy punchline), I literally cannot read the tweet as bigoted or racist. Is the joke off-color? yes. Is it obviously self-deprecating, and aware of the fucked-up-ed-ness of white & first-world privilege? yes.
fenomas 12y ago
The gray text makes it look like a lot of people disagree. So suppose for the sake of argument that lots of people on the internet considered this post "really f*cking stupid" and tried to get you fired for it - would that not be a problem? I mean presumably you don't think it was a repugnant thing to have posted, but then neither did Justine Sacco.
- gearoidoc 12y ago
  A fair point but comparing the ideal that people should be held responsible for their actions to a bad racist joke intended to highlight that "living in America puts us in a bit of a bubble when it comes to what is going on in the third world" is apples and oranges at best. If you feel like Gawker would be interested in running a piece on my comment then feel free to go ahead and submit it.
  - fenomas 12y ago
    These things are subjective. Presumably Sacco felt that comparing genuinely racist content to someone's sarcastic joke about themselves was apples and oranges as well. I rather do myself. Put it this way - nobody is against the idea of "people being held responsible for their actions". But it's pretty hard to buy that that's what happened here. I remember when the Sacco thing was trending and I never saw anyone who seemed hurt or angry, or even offended. To the contrary, people were thrilled that some PR asshole was going to get fired but didn't know it yet.
discardorama 12y ago
> Replace "offend the wrong person" with "do something really f*cking stupid" - which is what she did - and the outcome seems fair. And yet if she was a writer for SouthPark or Family Guy, we'd all be laughing at the joke.
jqm 12y ago
"consequences need to exist to actions" Didn't G.W. Bush say something similar about people who criticized the Iraq war?

andybak 12y ago

Fair? Do you really think so? If so you terrify me. I've done plenty of really f*cking stupid things in my time. I'm very thankful most of them were offline or pre-internet.

gearoidoc 12y ago
You're terrified by the idea that someone should be fired for gross unprofessionalism? To repeat: she did not deserve ANY bullying or harassment whatsoever. Did you experience consequences of the stupid actions you've taken?
- andybak 12y ago
  > To repeat: she did not deserve ANY bullying or harassment whatsoever. That wasn't clear. You said the "outcome was fair" - the outcome was that her life was ruined.
  - gearoidoc 12y ago
    I also said: No one deserves to be bullied or harassed but consequences need to exist to actions. I meant the outcome from a professional standpoint was fair. I don't believe how her life has been "ruined" as I've explained elsewhere.
    - tertius 12y ago
      Clearly the person who fired her only did so because of public outcry, i.e. the bullying. That was in their best interest. It wasn't fair. It wasn't a consequence equal to her action. It may have been equal to the reaction to her tweet, but that reaction was unjust. The consequences of the bullying, given her being fired, is much worse than if she was not fired. Her ability to compete in the workplace has been severely diminished because of this. Her PTSD that she will probably suffer for a long time has been greatly exacerbated by her firing. Given the worst intention of her tweet (ignorance), getting fired was still not the right reaction to her "crime." Do people need to be held accountable to their actions? I agree that they should. Outside of criminal law (since this wasn't criminal), the mob is not the right group to decide what the correct consequence of her actions should be. History shows that this leads to barbarism, which this was a case of. She didn't get what was coming to her, she got much worse.
    - zem 12y ago
      if you think the outcome from a professional standpoint was fair, you have a very bleak and dystopian view of fairness. she was posting something to her own private twitter account in her own time; it had nothing to do with the job.
- 650REDHAIR 12y ago
  Gross unprofessionalism? She wasn't on the job. It wasn't an official account.
  - MichaelGG 12y ago
    You'd think a PR person would know PR doesn't take breaks or consider unofficial stuff to be out of bounds.
  - gearoidoc 12y ago
    I'd like to live to a world where your actions outside of the workplace in a physical or online sense don't affect how you're perceived but it's just not true.
    - celticninja 12y ago
      Not true because of people like you who force the link, who call,email and tweet employers about the behaviour of their off duty staff.
      - gearoidoc 12y ago
        because of people like you ^Thats quite an assumption to make, no? For the record, I've never done any of the above.
        celticninja 12y ago
        I think you understand what I mean but are perhaps being dense for the sake of argument. There are people who hold simile views to yourself and these people take it up on themselves to bring people's employers into arguments that they have no part of or perhaps would be otherwise unaware of. That's not to say the employer cannot have a response to comments and posts of this nature but they are not allowed to deal with it in a professional manner because the mob is baying at their door.
        12y ago
- bentcorner 12y ago
  I've posted something online that almost got me fired. No racists remarks, no hate, it was just some techincal info I shouldn't have shared. The power that a few sentences can have is sometimes terrifying.
  - dredmorbius 12y ago
    Among the reasons that I "am" "Dr. Edward Morbius" and "work" is "Krell Power Systems, Unlimited".

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

latestrevision 12y ago

It appears that a big part of this discussion is about how we as a group are not sure if it really is a situation in which she "[did] something really f cking stupid", though. Clearly, you do interpret her statement to be an offensive, racist remark, but by her own admission, she instead was commenting on how "[l]iving in America puts us in a bit of a bubble when it comes to what is going on in the third world. I was making fun of that bubble." Whether or not her explanation for the off-color is truly genuine is up for debate, but scuttling somebody's life and career for something that only might have been a racist remark doesn't seem all that fair to me and (it would appear) a significant fraction of commenters here.

gearoidoc 12y ago
Her explanation does sound like it was crafted by a political PR group - which makes sense considering her profession - but I'm still happy to take her word for it. However, it's pretty easy to see how it could be considered a racist and bigoted tweet and I'd expect her to have realised this before sending it. EDIT: I totally agree that scuttling someones life on career off the back of one tweet is unfair - I 100% agree with that. As I said in the original comment, the bullying she experienced was totally unfair. I don't believe, however, that her career is ruined by it - evidenced by the fact that she's now gainfully employed. I think it's definitely a red flag on her resume but by doing volunteer service after the fact I'd be surprised if any company wouldn't see this as "I did something dumb, I learnt and grew from it". Professionals in PR should naturally be extra-vigilant about issues like these.
- 21echoes 12y ago
  if the joke had come out of Louis CK's mouth, its intention would have been obvious. given that, as she said in the article, "only an insane person would think that white people can't get AIDS", and the phrasing is obviously comic (dour opening, sudden & glib reversal, edgy punchline), I literally cannot read the tweet as bigoted or racist. Is the joke off-color? yes. Is it obviously self-deprecating, and aware of the fucked-up-ed-ness of white & first-world privilege? yes.

fenomas 12y ago

The gray text makes it look like a lot of people disagree. So suppose for the sake of argument that lots of people on the internet considered this post "really f*cking stupid" and tried to get you fired for it - would that not be a problem? I mean presumably you don't think it was a repugnant thing to have posted, but then neither did Justine Sacco.

gearoidoc 12y ago
A fair point but comparing the ideal that people should be held responsible for their actions to a bad racist joke intended to highlight that "living in America puts us in a bit of a bubble when it comes to what is going on in the third world" is apples and oranges at best. If you feel like Gawker would be interested in running a piece on my comment then feel free to go ahead and submit it.
- fenomas 12y ago
  These things are subjective. Presumably Sacco felt that comparing genuinely racist content to someone's sarcastic joke about themselves was apples and oranges as well. I rather do myself. Put it this way - nobody is against the idea of "people being held responsible for their actions". But it's pretty hard to buy that that's what happened here. I remember when the Sacco thing was trending and I never saw anyone who seemed hurt or angry, or even offended. To the contrary, people were thrilled that some PR asshole was going to get fired but didn't know it yet.

discardorama 12y ago

> Replace "offend the wrong person" with "do something really f*cking stupid" - which is what she did - and the outcome seems fair. And yet if she was a writer for SouthPark or Family Guy, we'd all be laughing at the joke.

jqm 12y ago

"consequences need to exist to actions" Didn't G.W. Bush say something similar about people who criticized the Iraq war?