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It's fair to say that but it isn't the case that someone can have an worthwhile opinion of something they haven't tried and a lot of people working with say Jav

It's fair to say that but it isn't the case that someone can have an worthwhile opinion of something they haven't tried and a lot of people working with say JavaScript or PHP just have never tried a decent ML-style language in anger. I think Stephen is a tiny bit guilty (as we all are) of that which I'll use Kahneman wording's to put: "Nothing is as important as you think it is when you are thinking about it". There's what seems to be an exaggeration that whatever cost a type system has must be high... it isn't even true of dependently typed programming languages. I also think product and sum types can be given a free pass to most complaints and while at it, you can throw in first-class function type as a minimum. And I will grant that you can stay away from ad hoc polymorphism and subtyping.

dragonwriter 12y ago
> It's fair to say that but it isn't the case that someone can have an worthwhile opinion of something they haven't tried I disagree. I don't have to try hitting myself in the head with a hammer to have a reasonable basis to believe it would be a bad idea. There's not much point in having reasoning ability if you can't apply it to develop useful opinions on what is and isn't even worth trying. Obviously, that's not to say that there aren't additional insights possible from direct experience, and that people sometimes apply prejudice rather than sound reasoning to present opinions on things they haven't tried, but its simply silly to say that people cannot have a worthwhile opinion on something they haven't tried.
- AnimalMuppet 12y ago
  I think you're misunderstanding davidgrenier's comment, specifically the line you quoted. It appears to me that you are actually agreeing with him.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    There may be an "is -> isn't" or "can -> can't" issue in the line I quoted, but I don't think so -- the rest of the sentiment in that article seems to be a specific case where the poster believes that someone is making an error of offering an opinion without experience (which I agree is an error), which makes sense (though, I'd obviously argue, represents an overgeneralization from a valid example) if its supporting a generalization that opinions without experience are invalid, but, without some "but" or "on the other hand", etc., doesn't make a lot of sense if the thesis it goes with is that some such opinions are valid. So I don't think I misunderstood it.
pekk 12y ago
I don't have any problem with ML, nor do I favor Javascript or PHP. Maybe you shouldn't make so many assumptions.

dragonwriter 12y ago

> It's fair to say that but it isn't the case that someone can have an worthwhile opinion of something they haven't tried I disagree. I don't have to try hitting myself in the head with a hammer to have a reasonable basis to believe it would be a bad idea. There's not much point in having reasoning ability if you can't apply it to develop useful opinions on what is and isn't even worth trying. Obviously, that's not to say that there aren't additional insights possible from direct experience, and that people sometimes apply prejudice rather than sound reasoning to present opinions on things they haven't tried, but its simply silly to say that people cannot have a worthwhile opinion on something they haven't tried.

AnimalMuppet 12y ago
I think you're misunderstanding davidgrenier's comment, specifically the line you quoted. It appears to me that you are actually agreeing with him.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  There may be an "is -> isn't" or "can -> can't" issue in the line I quoted, but I don't think so -- the rest of the sentiment in that article seems to be a specific case where the poster believes that someone is making an error of offering an opinion without experience (which I agree is an error), which makes sense (though, I'd obviously argue, represents an overgeneralization from a valid example) if its supporting a generalization that opinions without experience are invalid, but, without some "but" or "on the other hand", etc., doesn't make a lot of sense if the thesis it goes with is that some such opinions are valid. So I don't think I misunderstood it.

pekk 12y ago

I don't have any problem with ML, nor do I favor Javascript or PHP. Maybe you shouldn't make so many assumptions.